SEAT preview new Leon Cupra and Ibiza FR ahead of Barcelona Motorshow

Leonidas

Guest
Increasing those prices to bring them into the price realm of the competition might produce a pretty lairy and desirable product, however question is would it still sway people away from those Focus RS's, VW GTi's if they had to cough up the same amount of money?

If it was good enough and mad enough im sure it would. Also it could heighten SEAT's status among car buyers............
 

ZBOYD

Looking up at the stars!
May 19, 2001
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www.seatcupra.net
If it was good enough and mad enough im sure it would. Also it could heighten SEAT's status among car buyers............

Could it not represent a severe financial risk to take though for a company that though it has been a strong performer still doesn't command a huge market share like the bigger competition do.

Economics must play a huge part of the process. We know Ford and GM are struggling. SEAT need to remain profitable under VAG and maybe the economic climate simply isn't right for them to be producing lairy and expensive hot hatches at the moment.
 
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Al

Active Member
Aug 29, 2005
7,331
9
I know there are other differences that make the RS worth so much more than the ST Mark, but my point is that the Cupra and FR are all but identical where the RS and ST are not.

Getting slightly more muscular bumpers (not the Aero ones) and maybe some bespoke Cupra skirts/spoiler would make loads of difference.

When you consider the slight 30bhp advantage in the Cupra, have the same looks and with the newer better lower emissions engine in the FR, is it worth spending the extra for the Cupra? SEAT may well be the masters of their own misfortune with these 2 options placed so closely together and people opting for the lesser cheaper option due to the lack of difference between them.
 

Leonidas

Guest
We'll just hav to wait and see if they'll release a special edition ;)
 

warren_cox

Back from the dead
Ford may be struggling, but the other day I went to book a test drive for an RS Focus and the interest is so high I wouldn't be able to get a car if I want one until mid 2010 (which actually suits my time scales). There are the buyers if you produce something sensational. Ford's order books are full for the RS.

At a time like this, that's pretty good going, and I think proof that SEAT could afford to be slightly more radical than they are being.
 

Al

Active Member
Aug 29, 2005
7,331
9
We'll just hav to wait and see if they'll release a special edition ;)

The thing is though that people need to know way in advance to as to prepare for buying one.

Knowledge of the RS has been there for pretty well a year now to drum up interest.

If the MK2 Leon goes out of vogue in 2011 or 2012, I am not sure that I, for one, would want a top line car that is due to be obsolete only months afterward. The Cupra R on the other hand was available for 3 years before it was replaced.

The other thing is that I am not sure I would want to buy a Cupra if the special edition/top line one eclipses it not long afterward. Good way of putting people off buy a SEAT at all IMO, and I am now looking at selling my MK2 Leon Cupra for a MK2.5 Leon Cupra.

Any/all information away ahead of time would be good as keeping people in the dark serves no benefit at all especially with all new models like the Focus RS, Golf R20T, Megane Sport and new Astra VXR coming.
 
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ZBOYD

Looking up at the stars!
May 19, 2001
9,468
15
Cheshire
www.seatcupra.net
Ford may be struggling, but the other day I went to book a test drive for an RS Focus and the interest is so high I wouldn't be able to get a car if I want one until mid 2010 (which actually suits my time scales). There are the buyers if you produce something sensational. Ford's order books are full for the RS.

At a time like this, that's pretty good going, and I think proof that SEAT could afford to be slightly more radical than they are being.

Hardly surprising though, Ford have a huge fanbase (much larger than we are) the RS is a sought after and historic marque.

I doubt it would make one bit of difference if SEAT had a car out there to compete directly with it. It would still out sell the SEAT based on it's fan base alone.

With special short production run cars such as the RS (10,000 units to start with I believe) many are bought up to sell on at a profit by those desperate enough to be in the car before anyone else. Would not surprise me to see the car going for a premium soon after launch.
 

SEAT UK PR

Guest
I have a question for you sir.

Why have SEAT insisted on keeping the FR and Cupra so similar with regard to looks?

I am trying to imagine if the new Focus RS would have had the same fanfare if it looked like the ST but with all the changes hidden like the Cupra has over the FR which incidentally is a lot less than the RS has over the ST.

ST
ford-focus-st-2008-uk.jpg


RS
Ford_Focus_RS.jpg


It is very disappointing that the FR is 10bhp closer to the Cupra now and still looks the same IMO.

LEONS.jpg


Also, with this facelift, have SEAT finally disposed of those awful Aero bumpers to the skip or can we expect to see them again too?

Hi djhorace - I hope my answers below might help a little bit:

- There are indeed some visual differences between the Focus ST and Focus RS, but then again the ST ranges from £19,840 to £21,840, whereas the RS will be closer to £25k. In contrast, the current FR TSI manual currently costs £18,835 and the Cupra £19,485. The K1 comes in at £20,485. That £4-£5k is a huge difference, allowing quite a different specification

- As you suggest, the power outputs at 211 PS and 240 PS are much closer than the 225 PS and 300 PS of the two Focus models. For that reason, the Ford and SEAT can't be compared that directly

- It's easy for us to forget in the hot-hatch mad UK, but generally these types of cars are not big sellers worldwide. The UK is the largest market in the world for Leon Cupra and indeed for many of its hot hatch rivals. Therefore, the cost of investment at R&D level is often difficult to justify, especially in the current climate. Look at Ford again - it has suggested there will be no Fiesta ST, let alone a Fiesta RS. At SEAT, we are offering the Ibiza FR AND Cupra

- There is always the possibility of an even quicker Leon Cupra model, but nothing has been confirmed or suggested at the moment. If a more powerful version were to arrive, there is a greater likelihood of more differentiation

- The kit completely divides opinion, which is absolutely fine. Some love it (thank you markmeus!), some think it's too much for them. That's the whole point of offering the choice of Cupra and Cupra K1 - one for those that like things a bit more subtle, the other for those who want to make a brash statement. I think it's fair to say that with the Focus RS you don't have the option!

- We have yet to finalise in the UK the situation with kits for the revised Leon. I'll keep you posted, both here and on Twitter

Sorry it's a long reply!

Cheers
Mike
 
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Al

Active Member
Aug 29, 2005
7,331
9
Thank you.

Can you also confirm if the engine in the new Cupra is a TSI in the same sense as the new engine in the FR or if it is the same BWJ engine with the camshaft driven fuel pump? Also, will there be any SEAT approved tuning available for it like there is for SEAT in other countries?

Ta,

Horace
 
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ZBOYD

Looking up at the stars!
May 19, 2001
9,468
15
Cheshire
www.seatcupra.net
It's worth noting that the new TSI engine fuel pump still runs off the camshaft, if our cousins in the states are to be believed. Just runs from a different position, exhaust cam on the TSI versus intake cam on the TFSI

There was originally some indication that it was chain driven, this does not appear to be the case.

It also appears that the TSI fuel pump is far from problem free.

As we know SEAT have labelled the Cupra a TSI for sometime even though the engine is unchanged, based on the fact the higher powered unit as far as I'm aware isn't yet available in any other VAG stable-mate, it's probably a sure fire bet that SEAT have not changed this engine.
 

SEAT UK PR

Guest
Simple answer to that one: the engine in the Cupra is the same powerplant as before, whereas the 211 PS unit in the new FR is new.

The possibility of offering official tuning kits in the UK is something we often discuss, but warranty is a sticking point. Never say never though.

Personally I loved the idea of that Revo-tuned Leon that featured in Performance Car recently!
 

Al

Active Member
Aug 29, 2005
7,331
9
The possibility of offering official tuning kits in the UK is something we often discuss, but warranty is a sticking point. Never say never though.

Personally I loved the idea of that Revo-tuned Leon that featured in Performance Car recently!

You guys probably realise then that there are tuning kits available for SEAT's that can be removed so that dealership diagnostic equipment and ecu inspection cannot detect it then? Therefore not only are SEAT not taking advantage of people wanting to spend more money with them, but they are still footing the bill when peoples cars go wrong anyway. However, it has to be said that by going from the information on these forums at least, hardly any cars have problems when tuned.

By not offering the likes of Revo software as an official SEAT extra as is done in other countries, it does not do much for SEAT being a sporty brand especially when you consider that without it, it is not in the same league as the likes of the Focus RS performance wise. How good would it be for SEAT to have a car that has similar power to the mighty Focus RS for £5000 less?

Look at the Prodrive Performance Pack offered with Subaru's as a good example as is the Hartge kits for SAAB's.

With regard to warranty issues, if you look through the forums you will see that much more faults with cars are more down to design/manufacture faults than the modifications people do to them

You mentioning Revo's Leon K1 is interesting as that is actually a fairly good example of how minimal changes can make maximum difference. The only problems people seem to have with that spec is that the clutch and tyres dont last as long, but hey, more opportunities for you guys to make that less of an issue with the option of an uprated clutch ;)

Anyway, here is hoping.
 
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Acejin

Guest
I think its really looks like the FR, which is not bad.
but i hoped for new shape..
 

warren_cox

Back from the dead
Look at the Prodrive Performance Pack offered with Subaru's as a good example as is the Hartge kits for SAAB's.

VAG have been pitifully slow on the uptake of performance modifications.

A friend of mine was telling me how he has been able to spec his BMW 135i with a performance pack from BMW (factory fit) that will blow my S3 into the weeds. Whilst that claim is slightly optimistic it raises a question that VAG are on the brink of losing die hard buyers like myself who have been buying for 15+ years because of the restrictions they place on the buyer.

When you think back to the Audi RS2 which had Porsche brakes, manifold and suspension set up, that set a peak of standards for VAG embracing true performance by outsourcing to people who can.

Why is the RS an icon? Because it pushes the boundaries of motoring to the breakpoint of real world physics, and is steeped in heritage. Why is the Golf GTi Mk1 remembered so fondly? It delivered a new concept due to an engineer pushing the concept of 'Golf Sport' which the corporates said would never work. What bought Audi out of obscurity? Quattro, bought about when engineers pushed the boundaries beyond the corporate ideals.

Most of these cars that define greatness would if the accountants had there say should never have been built. I appreciate in recession this makes it a huge and potentially unacceptable risk, but greatness NEVER comes from mediocrity or playing it safe.

Yes SEAT can continue to make nice, fairly quick hot hatchbacks. But if it wants the universal respect that the RS brand delivers, or outright iconic status I think it will have to take some fight to the new breed of hyper hatches (Focus RS / Renault R26R / Audi RS3????).
 
VAG have been pitifully slow on the uptake of performance modifications.

A friend of mine was telling me how he has been able to spec his BMW 135i with a performance pack from BMW (factory fit) that will blow my S3 into the weeds. Whilst that claim is slightly optimistic it raises a question that VAG are on the brink of losing die hard buyers like myself who have been buying for 15+ years because of the restrictions they place on the buyer.

When you think back to the Audi RS2 which had Porsche brakes, manifold and suspension set up, that set a peak of standards for VAG embracing true performance by outsourcing to people who can.

Why is the RS an icon? Because it pushes the boundaries of motoring to the breakpoint of real world physics, and is steeped in heritage. Why is the Golf GTi Mk1 remembered so fondly? It delivered a new concept due to an engineer pushing the concept of 'Golf Sport' which the corporates said would never work. What bought Audi out of obscurity? Quattro, bought about when engineers pushed the boundaries beyond the corporate ideals.

Most of these cars that define greatness would if the accountants had there say should never have been built. I appreciate in recession this makes it a huge and potentially unacceptable risk, but greatness NEVER comes from mediocrity or playing it safe.

Yes SEAT can continue to make nice, fairly quick hot hatchbacks. But if it wants the universal respect that the RS brand delivers, or outright iconic status I think it will have to take some fight to the new breed of hyper hatches (Focus RS / Renault R26R / Audi RS3????).

Fantastic speech & all true
 
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