PhilW's Mk3 Ibiza Project Thread - 3071 - Now Breaking!

Wilko

Badge snob
Phil
I'm guessing your file is for a 69mm (id) maf from an s3/tt/r, so with a 73mm (id)maf it under reads at higher flows by roughly10%. This means you're seeing 250g/s which is about right for 1.5bar boost on a small port.

Your fuel trim is likely a function of the maf under reading by 10%.

Now mafs have different calibration curves so at low flows, its not as simple at just mutliplying the areas. This gives bigger mafs ok resolution at low flow, but it's just a function of air travelling faster down the centre of a pipe than at its walls. Higher flows will have a flatter velocity profile across the maf.

My 3076 was roughly that laggy on a 1.8, and 1bar boost level dropped by 8-900rpm when I went 2l.
with the current cracked housing, it still makes a bar by 4300, and 1.8 by 5000rpm.

Looking at that turbine map, you need 21lb/min to really get it spinning, and you're hitting that at about 4700 and low and behold, it starts to spool fast.

You need more boost now to make more power, as head flow on a small port peaks and goes flat at around 6500rpm, so in other words at fixed boost, engine flow doesn't increase much after 6500rpm.

You need headwork, 1.8bar boost and an 8k limiter to make that turbo work. That or a 2l
 
Nov 2, 2004
9,335
0
South Wales
Alright mate, thanks for chipping in. Appreciate it.

It was written for Alex @ Backdraft, i'll try and get him to confirm if it was any different for the 73mm MAF and 630cc injectors @ 3bar he ran. FYI Im running 73mm maf with 550's @ 4bar, so ~615cc, which im starting to think @ 1.8bar and 8k like you suggested are not going to be anywhere near big enough.

So what i mentioned earlier with the logs about taking 10% out via lemmiwinks isnt that far off the truth?

Do you think in all honesty then my setup isnt actually running that bad, just needs tweaking and that the hardware is ok, albeit possibly a bigger turbo than what i previously thought?

I wasnt planning on revving it as im on standard head (valves, spirngs etc..) but was looking to go largeport with a fully built head next year.
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
Couple of things to add.

Trims were 1.7% and 17.4% again after logging. Which is strange because AFR im seeing on runs is mid 10's which is pretty rich on WOT. If i wasnt gettin a spooling/lag issue id be looking at taking some fuel out to try and lean that mixture out a little.

Also tried a small run with the MAF disconnected which made no difference, felt the same really.

Had some fault codes as well, secondary air and N249 which im not bothered about, but also had a Knock sensor intermittent fault appear, now im not sure if this happened when i disconnected the MAF and done a run or not. Not seen that code before.

Im stumped, i almost think its a boost leak now. Running rich and bad spool points to that i think, along with a low reading MAF which i think is why im seeing the ECU add in fuel.

Is 1.3bar by 4900 that far off? I've not seen any logs on this type of setup before to compare.


Any help would be gratefully received.


I'll look out the BT logs I have tonight phil
bell me later if you want with your email address to send them to etc

regards
bill
 

IbizaAlex

AKS tuning
May 11, 2008
532
0
Bedford
Must have been a 3rd gear run so a tad useless. I am reaching full load, but going by your logs you are not. I dont think it was the final map either. I do have some more logs on the laptop. I will hunt them out for tmoz.

Code:
Group A:	'115				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'004			
	RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Voltage	Temperature	Temperature
TIME					TIME					TIME				
STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 V	°C	°C
0.24	3680	120.3	2360	1410	0.53	0	0	0	0	0.02	3600	13.37	87	21
1.14	4040	160.9	2440	1790	1.44	0	0	1.5	1.5	0.83	3920	13.65	86	22
2.03	4640	191.7	2450	2280	2.34	0	0	1.5	1.5	1.74	4480	13.37	87	24
2.94	5040	191.7	2440	2370	3.24	0	0	1.5	1.5	2.63	4840	13.65	87	24
3.84	5680	191.7	2510	2350	4.14	1.5	0	1.5	1.5	3.54	5520	13.37	87	27
4.74	5920	191.7	2550	2300	5.04	1.5	0	2.3	0.8	4.44	5840	13.72	87	29
5.64	6320	191.7	2550	2290	5.94	1.5	1.5	2.3	0.8	5.34	6200	13.65	87	30
6.54	6640	191.7	2550	2300	6.84	0.8	1.5	2.3	0.8	6.24	6560	13.51	87	33
7.44	6960	186.5	2550	2260	7.75	0.8	1.5	1.5	0	7.14	6880	13.23	86	34
8.34	4880	14.3	1000	1040	8.64	0	0	0	0	8.04	5800	13.72	86	33
9.24	5320	7.5	1000	910	9.54	0	0	0	0	8.93	5400	13.65	86	30

I also ran a 3 bar map sensor so you will need to work out the boost as if its a 3 bar sensor. Iirc this was a 1.8 bar peak going off the defi.
 
Nov 2, 2004
9,335
0
South Wales
I tried finding out what size the hotside is on this turbo as i dont really know, with the help of Bill, we think its a 0.82 a/r which would explain the late spool and not the 0.63. But not confirmed as i cant make out any of the markings on the hotside. Tried to take a pic or two so will post up my efforts. lol.

What you all think?

5011d89f.jpg

2d6ff33e.jpg

bc8c7128.jpg
 
Last edited:

IbizaAlex

AKS tuning
May 11, 2008
532
0
Bedford
I have another log with a bit more detail.

Code:
Group A:	'115				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'002			
	RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow
TIME					TIME					TIME				
STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s
0.58	3160	82	2190	970	0.04	0	0	0	0	0.27	3120	75.2	5.33	47.67
1.48	3400	102.3	2240	1200	0.87	0	0	0	0	1.17	3320	94.7	6.56	61.69
2.37	3720	122.6	2320	1430	1.77	0	0	1.5	0	2.07	3560	114.3	8.2	81.28
3.28	4040	163.9	2430	1830	2.68	0	0	1.5	0	2.98	3880	149.6	12.3	118.36
4.18	4600	191.7	2440	2320	3.58	1.5	3	2.3	1.5	3.88	4320	191.7	16.4	171.19
5.08	5120	191.7	2440	2410	4.47	4.5	3	2.3	3	4.77	4840	191.7	18.86	207.64
5.98	5560	191.7	2450	2380	5.38	4.5	3	3.8	4.5	5.68	5400	191.7	19.27	221.39
6.88	6000	191.7	2510	2350	6.28	4.5	4.5	3.8	4.5	6.58	5880	191.7	18.45	239.22
7.78	6480	191.7	2520	2310	7.18	4.5	4.5	3.8	4.5	7.48	6280	191.7	17.63	246.81
8.68	6880	191.7	2550	2270	8.08	3.8	4.5	3.8	3.8	8.38	6640	191.7	17.22	249.14
46.46	3360	94	2290	1100	46.76	0	0.8	0	0	46.18	3280	86.5	5.33	56.56
47.36	3640	116.5	2340	1350	47.66	0	0	0	0	47.05	3520	108.3	7.79	75.64
48.25	4000	154.9	2430	1720	48.55	3	1.5	3.8	0	47.95	3880	140.6	11.48	107.83
49.16	4600	191.7	2440	2280	49.46	3	1.5	3.8	0	48.86	4360	191.7	15.58	167.08
50.06	5120	191.7	2430	2420	50.36	3	3	3.8	3	49.76	5000	191.7	19.27	220.06
50.96	5720	191.7	2500	2370	51.26	3	3	3.8	3	50.66	5480	191.7	19.27	220.89
51.86	6040	191.7	2550	2330	52.15	4.5	4.5	3	3	51.56	5920	191.7	18.45	236.83
52.76	6480	191.7	2540	2310	53.06	4.5	4.5	3	3	52.46	6400	191.7	17.63	242.89
187.71	3360	78.9	2320	920	187.99	0	0	0	0	188.3	3480	97	6.56	68.17
188.59	3600	105.3	2320	1210	188.89	0	0	0	0	189.2	3800	130.8	10.25	102.78
189.49	3920	145.9	2440	1610	189.8	1.5	0	0	0	190.1	4240	179.7	14.35	153.69
190.4	4400	191.7	2460	2170	190.69	2.3	3	0	0	191	4800	191.7	18.45	200.5
191.3	5040	191.7	2450	2410	191.6	2.3	4.5	3	1.5	191.9	5400	191.7	19.27	224.08
192.2	5560	191.7	2510	2390	192.5	2.3	5.3	4.5	4.5	192.8	5800	191.7	18.45	232.5
193.1	6000	191.7	2500	2350	193.4	3.8	5.3	6	4.5	193.7	6320	191.7	17.63	243.72
194	6440	191.7	2490	2310	194.3	3.8	6.8	6	4.5	194.6	6680	191.7	17.22	254.78
194.9	6800	191.7	2470	2330	195.2	3.8	6.8	6	4.5	195.5	7080	191.7	16.4	260.31
195.8	7240	189.5	2490	2280	196.1	3	6.8	5.3	3.8	196.41	7320	184.2	15.99	256.42
 
Nov 2, 2004
9,335
0
South Wales
Thanks a lot for that Alex, good to see your logs to compare. Shifting some air wasnt it?!?!

You're not hitting peak boost til 5k not far off when i am, granted it was 1.8bar vs my 1.4. Whats your turbo again? 2871? trim and a/r?
 

IbizaAlex

AKS tuning
May 11, 2008
532
0
Bedford
Thanks a lot for that Alex, good to see your logs to compare. Shifting some air wasnt it?!?!

You're not hitting peak boost til 5k not far off when i am, granted it was 1.8bar vs my 1.4. Whats your turbo again? 2871? trim and a/r?

It did make some good maf figures. I dont know what the calculation is from the S3 maf to the S4 maf?

Peak boost felt higher. Maybe the defi picked it up faster than the oem map sensor. It was the 2871 with the .86 hotside: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v

Code:
Saturday	7	August	2010	16:01:27:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0	Data version: 20100630									
06A 906 032 DE		1.8L R4/5VT     G03 0001													

	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
		Engine Speed	Engine Load	Injection	Intake Air Mass		Cylinder 1 Ignition	Cylinder 2 Ignition	Cylinder 3 Ignition	Cylinder 4 Ignition		Engine Speed	Intake Air	Charge Pressure	Charge Pressure
	TIME			Timing		TIME	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	TIME		Temperature	Solenoid Valve	(actual Value)
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

	2187.79	1600	45.9	2.72	15.58	2188.09	0	0	0	0	2188.38	1720	39	100	1030
	2188.7	1720	84.2	4.42	27.86	2188.99	0	0	0	0	2189.29	1720	37	100	1080
	2189.6	1760	88	4.42	29.94	2189.9	0	0	0	0	2190.21	1920	36	100	1120
	2190.51	2000	91.7	4.76	36.19	2190.81	0	0	0	0	2191.1	2160	34	100	1180
	2191.41	2240	99.2	5.1	44.78	2191.71	0	0	0	0	2192.01	2400	33	100	1250
	2192.32	2520	105.3	5.44	51.56	2192.62	0	0	0	0	2192.92	2680	33	100	1310
	2193.22	2720	106	5.44	55.5	2193.52	0	0	0	0	2193.83	2920	32	100	1340
	2194.13	3000	111.3	5.78	63.22	2194.43	0	0	0	0	2194.73	3160	31	100	1410
	2195.03	3240	119.5	6.8	75.5	2195.33	0	0	0	0	2195.63	3440	31	100	1500
	2195.94	3560	131.6	7.82	92.11	2196.24	0	0	0	0	2196.54	3760	30	100	1720
	2196.84	3880	158.6	9.52	122.39	2197.14	0	0	0	0	2197.44	4200	30	100	2040
	2197.75	4360	183.5	10.88	159.08	2198.05	0	0	0	0	2198.35	4640	29	100	2170
	2198.65	4800	185.7	10.88	171.69	2198.95	0	0	0	0	2199.26	5040	28	100	2140
	2199.57	5120	188	10.54	185.72	2199.86	0	0	0	0	2200.16	5320	27	100	2130
	2200.46	5400	190.2	11.22	196.86	2200.77	0	0	0	0	2201.07	5640	27	100	2150
	2201.37	5720	190.2	11.22	207.42	2201.67	0	0	0	0	2201.97	5840	27	100	2080
	2202.27	5920	188	10.54	212.78	2202.58	0	0	0	0	2202.89	6080	27	100	2130
	2203.18	6120	185.7	10.54	220.75	2203.49	0	0	0	0	2203.79	6240	27	100	2090
	2204.09	6280	184.2	10.54	220.42	2204.4	0	0	0	0	2204.7	6400	27	100	2130
	2204.99	6440	182.7	10.54	227.14	2205.29	0	0	0	0	2205.59	6560	27	100	2150
	2205.9	6600	182	10.2	230.06	2206.2	0	0	0	0	2206.51	6720	28	100	2120

same car
Code:
Saturday	7	August	2010	18:41:45:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0	Data version: 20100630							
06A 906 032 DE		1.8L R4/5VT     G01 0001											
													
	Group A:	'020				Group B:	'031		Group C:	'118			
		Cylinder 1 Ignition	Cylinder 2 Ignition	Cylinder 3 Ignition	Cylinder 4 Ignition		Lambda Sensor	Lambda Sensor		Engine Speed	Intake Air	Charge Pressure	Charge Pressure
	TIME	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	Angle Delay	TIME	Current Value	Specified Value	TIME		Temperature	Solenoid Valve	(actual Value)
Marker	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP			STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar	22.64	0	0	0	0	22.94	1	1	23.24	1760	39	100	1030
	23.54	0	0	0	0	23.85	0.953	1	24.15	1800	36	100	1100
	24.45	0	0	0	0	24.75	0.984	1	25.06	2240	35	100	1170
	25.36	0	0	0	0	25.66	0.977	0.969	25.96	2680	33	100	1260
	26.26	0	0	0	0	26.56	0.93	0.93	26.87	3160	32	100	1300
	27.17	0	0	0	0	27.47	0.852	0.828	27.77	3680	31	100	1470
	28.07	0	0	0	0	28.37	0.805	0.813	28.68	4280	30	100	1880
	28.98	0	0	0	0	29.28	0.836	0.805	29.58	5240	30	93.7	2540
	29.88	0.8	0	0.8	3	30.19	0.766	0.805	30.5	6680	27	100	2540
	30.79	0.8	0	0.8	3	31.09	0.789	0.805	31.39	7400	27	100	2510
	31.69	0.8	0	0.8	3	31.99	0.797	0.805	32.29	7680	29	100	2540
 
Last edited:

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25

Code:
Saturday	31	July	2010	16:18:57:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.0	Data version: 20100630									
8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT     G02 0004													

	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
	0.31	800	24.1	1.36	3.67	0.6	0	0	0	0	0.01	800	39	0	1000
	40.13	1760	57.9	3.4	22.03	40.43	0	0	0	0	39.84	1680	38	0	1000
	41.03	1760	78.9	4.08	26.78	41.34	0	0	0	0	40.73	1760	37	94.5	1020
	41.94	2000	82.7	4.42	32.58	42.25	0	0	0	0	41.64	1840	36	94.5	1070
	42.86	2480	92.5	4.76	46.83	43.15	0	0	0	0	42.56	2320	34	94.5	1140
	43.76	2920	106.8	5.1	63.47	44.06	0	0	0	0	43.46	2800	33	94.5	1210
	44.67	3400	124.1	6.12	84	44.97	0	0	0	0	44.37	3280	33	94.5	1340
	45.57	3920	160.9	7.48	126.81	45.87	0	0	0	0	45.27	3760	33	94.5	1590
	46.48	4480	191.7	11.22	180.78	46.78	0	0	0	0	46.17	4280	33	85.5	2090
	47.38	5160	191.7	13.6	249.61	47.68	0	3	0	0	47.08	4920	35	83.5	2540
	48.29	5640	191.7	13.94	262.28	48.59	0	3	3	0	47.98	5520	37	84.3	2540
	49.19	6040	191.7	13.94	275	49.49	0	3	3	0	48.89	5920	39	84.7	2540
	50.1	6400	191	13.6	272.08	50.4	0	3	3	0	49.79	6280	42	85.5	2540
	51.01	6720	191	13.6	264.58	51.3	0	3	3	0	50.7	6640	46	85.5	2540
	51.91	7120	191	13.6	271.78	52.21	0	0	0	0	51.61	7000	49	87.1	2540

polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r @ ajec before fueling was sorted
Code:
Saturday	12	December	2009	13:17:19									
06A 906 032 TL		1.8l R4/5VT      01 0040											

	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'031		Group C:	'118			
		RPM	Temperature	Lambda	Bin. Bits		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME			TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %		STAMP			STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

	436.64	2080	96	-10.2	11101001	436.94	0.75	1	436.34	2080	27	95.3	1030
	437.55	2280	96	0	11100001	437.85	0.75	1	437.25	2120	27	95.3	1100
	438.45	2800	96	0	11100001	438.75	0.75	0.953	438.15	2640	27	95.3	1180
	439.36	3320	96	0	11100001	439.66	0.75	0.914	439.06	3160	26	95.3	1330
	440.26	3920	96	-18.8	11101001	440.56	0.828	0.852	439.96	3680	26	95.3	1670
	441.18	4840	96	-9.4	11101001	441.47	0.813	0.836	440.87	4480	27	73.7	2540
	442.08	5520	96	-7.8	11101001	442.39	0.789	0.813	441.77	5320	27	40.8	2540
	442.98	6040	96	-11.7	11101001	443.28	0.813	0.813	442.69	5880	29	43.9	2540
	443.89	6480	96	-16.4	11101001	444.2	0.782	0.813	443.58	6360	30	39.2	2540
	444.8	6840	96	-18	11101001	445.1	0.789	0.813	444.49	6760	33	29.8	2540
	445.7	7240	96	-21.1	11101001	446.01	0.797	0.813	445.4	7120	35	14.1	2540
	446.61	7640	96	-25	11101001	446.9	1.991	0.875	446.31	7520	37	15.3	2540

Actuator pressure on polo, early log
Code:
	Sunday	15	November	2009	15:23:44									
06A 906 032 TL		1.8l R4/5VT      01 0040											

	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'031		Group C:	'115			
		RPM	Temperature	Lambda	Bin. Bits		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME			TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %		STAMP			STAMP	 /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
435	2120	89	-13.3	11101001	434.4	0.969	1	434.71	2080	92.5	1480	1110
	435.91	2160	89	-14.1	11101001	435.3	0.984	1	435.61	2160	94.7	1590	1140
	436.81	2240	89	-14.8	11101001	436.21	0.984	1	436.51	2200	96.2	1620	1170
	437.72	2280	89	-13.3	11101001	437.11	1	1	437.42	2280	97.7	1640	1190
	438.62	2360	89	-14.1	11101001	438.02	0.992	1	438.32	2360	99.2	1660	1200
	439.54	2440	89	-10.9	11101001	438.92	1	1	439.23	2400	100	1690	1210
	440.43	2520	89	-12.5	11101001	439.83	0.953	0.969	440.13	2480	101.5	1680	1230
	441.34	2600	89	-12.5	11101001	440.73	0.961	0.961	441.05	2560	103	1710	1240
	442.24	2680	89	-13.3	11101001	441.64	0.953	0.961	441.94	2640	105.3	1730	1240
	443.15	2760	89	-13.3	11101001	442.55	0.953	0.961	442.85	2720	107.5	1750	1260
	444.05	2800	90	-13.3	11101001	443.45	0.938	0.953	443.75	2800	109.8	1780	1280
	444.96	2880	90	-13.3	11101001	444.36	0.953	0.953	444.66	2880	112	1810	1310
	445.86	3000	90	-12.5	11101001	445.26	0.938	0.945	445.56	2960	117.3	1880	1350
	446.77	3080	90	-10.9	11101001	446.17	0.938	0.945	446.47	3040	121.8	1860	1410
	447.67	3160	90	-11.7	11101001	447.07	0.938	0.93	447.37	3160	127.8	1800	1500
	448.58	3280	90	-14.8	11101001	447.98	0.914	0.914	448.28	3240	143.6	1780	1610
	449.48	3400	90	-14.8	11101001	448.88	0.914	0.906	449.18	3360	160.2	1720	1770


hope this helps compare phil
:thumbup:
 
Last edited:
Nov 2, 2004
9,335
0
South Wales
Thanks Bill. Appreciate that a lot.

Alex gets his about 4000, maybe a bit less.

gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v : 4300 ish

gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25: 4250 ish Tuftys? No wonder hes re-doing is cooler. lol

polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r : probably about 4000.

And mine: Between 4500-4700.


Now this might be to do with richness on spool, large fmic core and maybe small boost leak.

Are any of them on tubular manifolds like mine? Loggers should spool quicker i would have thought.


Need to check for leaks, adjust the fuelling and raise the boost and see what my logs look like from there.

If i can get it down 300-500rpm id be pretty happy.
 

ibizacupra

Jack-RIP my little Friend
Jul 25, 2001
31,333
19
glos.uk
Thanks Bill. Appreciate that a lot.

Alex gets his about 4000, maybe a bit less.

gt3071,t25,0.86a/r, 2ltr 20v : 4300 ish

gt3071-compact-48trim, 0.63a/r,T25: 4250 ish Tuftys? No wonder hes re-doing is cooler. lol

polo, t3t04e-57trim,0.62a/r : probably about 4000.

And mine: Between 4500-4700.


Now this might be to do with richness on spool, large fmic core and maybe small boost leak.

Are any of them on tubular manifolds like mine? Loggers should spool quicker i would have thought.


Need to check for leaks, adjust the fuelling and raise the boost and see what my logs look like from there.

If i can get it down 300-500rpm id be pretty happy.


of those, polo is tubular, external gated and closest to yours.
 
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