Why do people rolling road there car for bhp claims. For me it is all about the 1/4 mile, it takes into acount how good a driver you are and the setup of your car, and that is where the claims are for me.
This is what a stage 2 1.4TSI truthfully makes
- Thread starter vRSy
- Start date
When I moved from NA engine VW's (Mk2Golf GTi with 2.0 16v conversion running close to 160hp and a Lupo GTi running around 140bhp), and purchased my first brand spanking new LCR with 225 horses, because of the weight gain the car felt quite limp and I was surprised despite the 60hp hike from what I'd been used too the car didn't feel properly quick.
So I took it straight to AMD in Bicester (as it was back then) and they gave it a remap which gave a nice smooth plot and a reported 280bhp. I drove it home and whilst it was perkier, it still felt a bit weak and nowhere near 280!
Obviously it transpired on other rollers (stealth racing) it was 255bhp-ish (although I doubt it was much more than 240), but even when I got the next car (LCR 2) when that went Stg 2 it never felt like the claimed 270bhp.
It takes around 270bhp to achieve a terminal speed of 155mph on the road due to aero drag, and another nearly 700hp to get to 250mph (for a Veyron). It then took another 200bhp to get to 267mph for the Veyron SS, so when people talk about 10 bhp in an artificial environment I'm left a bit lost really as 10bhp into a 100mph headwind is likely to provide next to no difference at all.
Also power figs in different cars feel different. Kev's old EVO 6TME felt a world apart from my LCR2 despite me stating a few 10's of horsepower don't make a huge difference. It's a combination of things like for instance tractable power and outright cornering grip that make a car properly quick on the road, not just a big bhp which in the wrong chassis can be easily pissed away. Any idiot can go fast in a straight line (if there's no initial launch involved), so it's only 1 part of a very complex picture.
So I took it straight to AMD in Bicester (as it was back then) and they gave it a remap which gave a nice smooth plot and a reported 280bhp. I drove it home and whilst it was perkier, it still felt a bit weak and nowhere near 280!
Obviously it transpired on other rollers (stealth racing) it was 255bhp-ish (although I doubt it was much more than 240), but even when I got the next car (LCR 2) when that went Stg 2 it never felt like the claimed 270bhp.
It takes around 270bhp to achieve a terminal speed of 155mph on the road due to aero drag, and another nearly 700hp to get to 250mph (for a Veyron). It then took another 200bhp to get to 267mph for the Veyron SS, so when people talk about 10 bhp in an artificial environment I'm left a bit lost really as 10bhp into a 100mph headwind is likely to provide next to no difference at all.
Also power figs in different cars feel different. Kev's old EVO 6TME felt a world apart from my LCR2 despite me stating a few 10's of horsepower don't make a huge difference. It's a combination of things like for instance tractable power and outright cornering grip that make a car properly quick on the road, not just a big bhp which in the wrong chassis can be easily pissed away. Any idiot can go fast in a straight line (if there's no initial launch involved), so it's only 1 part of a very complex picture.
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No i am talking for a stock turbine, no compressor wheel, i guess when i tell you about the 20VT K03s hybrid with NOS that achieved 430bhp youa re gonna laugh even more.
Well i have even posted the dyno result here, and bare in mind as i said with catalyst and not too streched, the fact that you claim a K03 turbine cannot make 230 bhp is a joke.
Mine made 752bhp and 500Nm torque
I guess you drive something like this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4_4cCbYHj0&feature=related, this is also tuned here in greece.
Comments like above remind me why i stopped posting on forums, there are always going to be people smart enough to deminish our efforts and results. At least i post my dynos and videos of what my car is doing. I speak with facts especially on the 1.4 tsi, most of you heard the limits of DSG from a friend's friend and so on.I tried the limits and know what this engine+gearbox can achieve and what not. I shouldnt be posting anything because instead of opening your ears, you tell me off and say its not possible this and that.
Fair play you can roll happy at 200bhp @limiter when others have surpassed 260. Time will show who is lying and whos not.
HA HA True Jason..... I am also very happy with my car and I will get it RR when I have finished with the engine.
VRSy I appriciate what you have tried to demonstraight here, but i think a better outcome would be if more that two cars were used, maybe look at figures from a 1.4TSI RR day with multipule examples of each. You cant just run one stage car and then say there all the same?
These forums are all about discussion ;-)
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JC i have paid so much money that i could have bought a 2nd hand Mitsubishi Evolution which is a proper car instead of the 1,4 tsi.If you ask me now, no its not worth it. The issue is you start with simple things and you end up facing many difficulties and there is no ready solution and when u spent alot of money u cant go back. I couldnt care any less for the money i spent, the amount of sadness with all the problems i faced I almost got the fkn cancer. And people come here to tell me what is possible and what not without even trying anything and without even knowing what turbine i have.FYI we have dismantled everything in this car engine, compressors and so on, we have seen first hand what pistons we have what rods. But for those smartpants i can always upload pictures of my new turbine next to a calliper so they can see the dimension of my turbo.
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I admire everything that you have done but as you say.........
Could have bought an EVO and saved all the hassles. Thats is why once you start down the serious conversion route its a long path and no going back. Thats why I bought the RS as well for a bit more of a more grunt less hassles car in the short term.
I appreciate it mate, but honestly many people think that i post my results in order to showoff or whatever. I promise you that i tune my car purely for my entertainment. And i want to share what i found out in order for other people not to waste money like i did.
I hope i was wiser before, i didnt have these plans they just happened. This car has costed me a total of 28000Euros including the car. The next car is definatelly not going to be a mini hatchback. Luckily i have a fiance that never objects to my hobby
.
Some do as its a massively obsessional hobby.
E 28,000 damn that is a whole bucket load of cash, has it been worth it, To you yes. I have followed your efforts with interest along with Ibizaracebrake you both do set the standard (And Jase coming up on the rails with his)
There are some amazing cars on here, we all love em but as long as the owner is happy that is what matters.
My thoughts for the day.
The Quicker cars start at 2.O litre always have always will. Even years ago when I got addicted to tuning cars 2.0 was the serious starting point
Torque and BHP the battle continues!
E 28,000 damn that is a whole bucket load of cash, has it been worth it, To you yes. I have followed your efforts with interest along with Ibizaracebrake you both do set the standard (And Jase coming up on the rails with his)
There are some amazing cars on here, we all love em but as long as the owner is happy that is what matters.
My thoughts for the day.
The Quicker cars start at 2.O litre always have always will. Even years ago when I got addicted to tuning cars 2.0 was the serious starting point
Torque and BHP the battle continues!
Couldnt agree more with all of the above, the point is to learn from your mistakes and not repeat them.
GrDude, I have been following your cars build aswell and I completey beleive the figures you are posting and are not showing off at all. It's good someone actually has the balls to go ahead and tune a car that seriously without really knowing what the outcome is. A 260 bhp 1.4, now that's impressive. I'd love to have my Cupra like that but I have decided the most im gonna take mine up to is stage 2+ (intake, Full TBE, Twintercooler, Revo) and leave it at that. Don't be put off by others as alot of us like hearing about it, that goes for anyone. Forums are here to discuss things like that, naturally arguments will happen but care we are all here for the similar reasons.
Back to the point, I beleive that its's just a case of differing dyno's. Some are strict and some are over-exaggerated. DD dyno's seem to be very strict or perhaps even underread. I have not had mine rolling roaded yet but when I do I will post results. I do beleive Revo's claims are accurate enough.
Back to the point, I beleive that its's just a case of differing dyno's. Some are strict and some are over-exaggerated. DD dyno's seem to be very strict or perhaps even underread. I have not had mine rolling roaded yet but when I do I will post results. I do beleive Revo's claims are accurate enough.
dera
Guest
Nice curve, next time tell your Maha operator not to stand on the brake pedal when calculating transmission losses on coastdown.
180 wheel hp is closer to 210hp crank, not 230hp.
dera
Guest
Yes, your dyno result for 232hp was a joke. 50hp drivetrain losses oh come on...
I'm talking about the compressor, not turbine. Turbine has hardly any effect on the maximum air mass the compressor can produce. Compressor is what matters.
What was the exhaust back pressure on that 430hp 20VT if it still had standard turbine housing?
Jesus, now you are telling me that we faked the dyno result.Because english is not my mother tongue please see this from the AMS website. Unless this is a conspiracy and AMS is also lying.
"LPS 3000 All Wheel Drive Dynamometer (imported special from Germany). A dyno so highly regarded that it is the only dyno used by major manufacturers such as: Audi ,Volkswagen, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, ..etc. In fact Audi/VW consider the MAHA such an integral part of working with their vehicles, that they have listed it with a factory tool number and you can purchase it directly from them if you so wish.
There are 2 main obstacles when using a chassis dyno, the first is airflow. Most fans used on chassis dynamometers are taken from
contractor suppliers and struggle to simulate a 10-20 MPH road speed, which is equivalent to your doctor asking you to submit to a fitness test while in a sauna. Needless to say, your score will be low. The MAHA approved custom built,"AIR 8" fan on the AMS MAHA dyno, flows over 80,000 CFM (cubic feet/minute) or a road speed of 60-70 MPH!
The second obstacle, is that most dyno's only measure "wheel horsepower" - that is the power that isn't sapped away by everything
located after the clutch (transmission, differentials, driveshaft, axles, even the wheels and tires themselves!). And since wheel
horsepower readings are dependent on the temperature of your transmission and differential oils (cold oil is like molasses and warm is like water..warm oil eats less power) and tire temperature (cold tires offer less resistance than warm sticky tires) so driveline loss can be inconsistant or as an expert refered to it as a moving target !
Many people simply add back a "guesstimate" of the parasitic drag of these components anywhere from 10-20% for FWD or RWD cars and 25-40% for AWD or 4WD cars. The final numbers are only as accurate as the tuner's best guess.
AMS and many OE manufactures have felt that was an unacceptable platform to tune a vehicle from and went in search of something more precise and reliable.
The result of our search was the MAHA LPS 3000.
The inherent beauty of a dyno system like the MAHA LPS 3000, is that after it has measured the wheel horsepower, it measures the resistance of the entire drive train from the clutch to the tires So instead of dynoing a vehicle with a reported 200HP and measuring only 150HP at the wheel, and ASSUMING that 50HP was eaten up by the drag of the drivetrain and wheels The LPS 3000 actually measures the drag loss during the coast down phase. In fact, if the drag loss is only 30 HP, you know beyond a "guesstimate" that your engine only made 180HP, or if the drag was 50HP, you will know EXACTLY how much power your vehicle is really making. However, with a drag measurement you can rest assured that you have isolated ONLY the Engine's HP and not the engine's power minus an unknown amount of drag. The system also corrects for enviromental conditions.
Thus far every stock production car that AMS has tested from Audi, VW and Porsche has dyno'ed within 0-5 HP of the factory crank Horsepower claim. It's that accurate!"
Tell you something else, i really couldnt care any less for a number, the fact is that this car at 232bhp was raping cars with 270bhp, so if my car was actually 210 i think we are looking at something very impressive here.
mate seriously i think you ve got some sand in your vagina, GET IT OUT FAST!!!!!!!!!
Have to agree though, 6 posts, all in this thread and most are argumentative, is this what's known as a troll? Or is it someone else registered in a different name
there is another JKM dyno day in August and I will attend again along with mOrk who will be there with his cupra. he has stage one with sps so we will be able to gauge a much more accurate reading on the power gains between stock, stage 1 and stage 2 IRRISPECTIVE of what the numbers say. it will be about the gains and this is really what myself and Sy are interested in.
dera
Guest
I'm just stating the facts, nothing else. You were talking about turbines I was talking about compressors so perhaps we were lost in translation there.
Based on the 1.4TSI standard compressor map, to achieve airflow for 232hp, the compressor would require about 300'000rpm, which is impossible without snapping the axle.
I have used LPS3000 (I prefer the new Maha Monoroll though) amongst other dynos for years so I know when a result is reliable and when it isnt.
Just to say this out loud, I do not think DD is any more accurate than others, I dont like their "no-one knows" algorithm on loss calculation. But on your print you're seeing what, 40kW at redline lost on the drivetrain?
180hp wheel horsepower and 232hp corrected crank means the dyno coastdown measured too much losses. This can be due to many different reasons, tyre pressure, how the car was strapped down, and sometimes DSG causes it to overread.
I do not wish to start an argument, and we're very off topic here, but laws of physics just limit the airflow produced by the compressor to a certain level, where airflow vs. compressor rotational speed causes so high angle of attack that the compressor stalls. It doesnt produce any more air after that.
I just want you to see this from my point of view.
The most reliable way to calculate horsepower is knowing the weight and 1/4 mile trap speed. Dyno lottery is always just that, dyno lottery.
dera
Guest
Sorry i guess my english are bad, but when u say compressor u mean the actual compressor of the car or the propeller of the turbine? If you are reffering to the actuall compressor then it is disengaged after 3,5k rpm because the mechanical door closes at that point so the air is only coming in from the intake.
If you mention to the turbine how do u estimate the amount of rpm when you do not know the AFR, Advance, Ambient Temperature and so on? Even if you knew how many grams of air i have coming in you still wouldnt be able to give an good estimate of the cars power.
I disagree that the most efficient way to measure power is weight and terminal speed @ 1/4 mile. You do realise the amount of parameters (tyres, suspenions,wind, track). Imagine 2 identical cars, every single setting same apart from one having lets say a gearbox from a diesel car, the difference between these 2 cars would be atleast 3-4cars distance. Would you say the 2nd one has more power or it spreads the same power better and requires at least 1gear change less hence ending up faster.
I guess you are proffesional in tuning, so could you be more specific on what settings you run your remaps, AFR,Advance, Boost pressure, Abs throttle position(all the way to the limiter)
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