handling?

eurorob

Active Member
Feb 4, 2010
70
0
what handeling mods are people running and what benifits have you found from them? or what troubles have they caused?

i have a 6k cordoba and am contemplating buying a 3piece strut brace kit (front upper+lower and rear upper), also eibach front camber bolts and rear camber shims, my car is currently lowered aprox 80mm on coilovers with 17" alloys.

is anyone running this kind of set up and if so how does it drive? i only do around 4-5 trackdays a year and the car is hardly used (never had this on a track before but my old track car has now gone so going to use the cordoba)
 

jcs356

Cordy owner
Jul 12, 2004
1,161
0
Englandland
I'd put front/rear anti-rollbars and some rear spacers on the list before strut braces. Not sure what your longer term plans are, but rear strut brace is not required if you've got a cage in. For reference my Cordy has a 6 point cage, front upper strut brace, plus Neuspeed front and rear ARBs and 10mm rear spacers

Can't comment on the camber setup.

I'd also look for some smaller wheels for track use as 17inch wheels on track = v. expensive tyres. If you've still got the 280mm front brakes you can run happily run 15's.n I had been running OE 15's (as per sig pic) but now got some Compomotive MO's with R888s on for next year's track fun.

Nice to hear of another Cordy making it onto track.
 

eurorob

Active Member
Feb 4, 2010
70
0
thanks for that, dont want to go too far with the car ie. cage but have def thought about a spare set of wheels for track so may down size for track use,wheres the best place to look for arb's? have also posted this on the cordba section to see if anyone on there has done any mods but i know the ibiza boys prefer tracks lol
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
If the cordy's like the beezer in this respect you may find 195x16x45 a better solution than the 17's

My bro ran these very competitively with Koni ssk adjustable rate track dampers (usually on minimum setting) - bright yellow damper with blue spring - with no further mods other than a bolt in cage and decent chair. The Konis give around -25mm off standard Cupra ride (maybe 40 off standard car?) Cupra obviously has arbs already. No braces were used. The Konis survived many years and around 100-120k of hammer, and are now str-t's as I'm not as serious and tbh, they feel the same as the SSK's on min setting, just aren't as well guaranteed and half the price.

Believe Mork has been known to race his Cordy on 14x185x60s before now... :)

I have a feeling the Cordy has slightly wider track and the rear beam goes nicely in a beezer... :D
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
Some interesting looking kit on Whiteline, never used them myself mind... Looks like Australia from website.

I found europerformance to be very helpful and got the best deal I could haggle there...
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
No worries. I asked my bro about braces when I got the car off him as they are a real plus on the fords I used to abuse.

He reckoned that when the mk2's were newer and more common on track days the feeling was that there were plenty better things to do than fit strut braces as they didn't have so much impact as on other cars.

Guessing you've looked at poly bushes and all the usual GpN stuff already? If not, it's surprising what a difference properly locating your subframe and beam makes (this is basically what a strut brace tries to bolt in). The GpN stuff will absolutely destroy the car for comfortable road use but be Awesome at keeping things where they should be. To be honest, half the reason for strut braces on Fords is to combat a tendency for the towers to lean in and get worse over time. The beezer doesn't really have this problem as the layout is a little different, strut doesn't sandwich into hub carrier in the same way. The beezer pretty much has the geometry located via subframe and uses the suspension as a damper while with the fords it's trying to damp and be an anchor point. I think the Cordy and beezer are the same at the front and same design but wider Cordy rear. As I say, I'm pretty sure the Cordy back bolts right up in a Mk 2 beezer for a wider track... Not that this matters to you!
 

jcs356

Cordy owner
Jul 12, 2004
1,161
0
Englandland
I didn't think the Cordy rear was different from the Ibiza?

I used to run my Ibiza on 185/60/14s - you do get quite a bit of sidewall flex. I think the best bet is 195/50/15s as there is plenty of choice in track tyres in that size. 195/45/16 is rarer and you may find you have to run 205/45/16 which can then interfere with suspension (I know Dave R had problems with his car & that tyre size).

I got my Neuspeed ARBs from Bill @Badger5
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
I've got Avon zv3's in 185x60x14 on Scirocco Montreal 'bottle tops' as my winter wheels right now. Sidewalk flex is much more noticeable than with the 195x45x16 Yokie S Drives I normally run on the 20VTs. That said, it's not all bad, and certainly perfectly drivable. Personally I'd say the 60's are too flabby for track use, I only mentioned them as I'm told that the very (old! Falkens) I just binned off the bottle tops had been well scuffed up on someone else's Cordy before they came my way...

I know the Yokies aren't everyone's fave, but I love mine to bits. I get them in W rating (84 wall I think?) and run a stock 2.7bar front 2.3 rear mostly. Current fronts still have nearly 4mil on them after nearly 11k which ain't bad for Yokies from what I hear some people saying!

I've completely shredded C Drives in snow and ice before now tho, hence keeping remaining rubber for better weather!
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
205/45/16 which can then interfere with suspension (I know Dave R had problems with his car & that tyre size). /QUOTE]

Yups, wouldn't go wider than 195 without doing something to make extra space (the XR2 track boys used to put climbing chalk on the sidewalls and then bash their inner wings where they could see contact points- not that I'd recommend that either!)

I've even heard of some 195x45's contacting inner wing on full lock. Forget which, weren't mine but I know the same car normally ran (both before and after) different brands on the same wheels without the issue.

Might be wrong on the Cordy rear on a beezer thing, might be mixing it with something else (probably something 205 related if I am) not that it really matters to the OP... :)
 

suj

Wheel Connoisseur
Jan 1, 2009
5,808
1
Birmingham
Sorry but why would 17's be better than the standard 15's/16's? :S
The 17's could be alot more heavier, so a lot more unsprung mass.
Also to get same rolling radius you need a much thinner tyre on a 17" wheel, so smaller sidewall, the ride will be much harsher and decrease in flex too.


The reason a 195/45 tyre would "rub on full lock" would be down to getting wheels with the wrong offset, and maybe due to being way too low.

The rear of the Cordoba is the same as the Ibiza, it is 41-42mm shorter than the front track (so why normally people get 20mm spacers to even it out).

I agree with Jase, 195/50/15's are so much easier to get tyres, and with most 15" wheels, you can go over the 280mm 16v brakes perfectly :)
 

eurorob

Active Member
Feb 4, 2010
70
0
wow, wasnt expecting so much input from people, i do have my standard 15"wheels but had been looking at selling my 17s to get some 16x8s, what would your thoughts be on this? would i be runnig too wide a wheel or would this be ok? i had also seen some 15x8s i rather liked but think that would be too small?maybe not?
 

jcs356

Cordy owner
Jul 12, 2004
1,161
0
Englandland
Well you've got your answer - get some track specific tyres for your OE 15s and run those for starters and keep your eyes peeled for some second hand lightweight track wheels.
 

Caffienated

Active Member
Dec 2, 2009
224
1
Bristol
Um, an 8" wheel is pretty massive. How much power are you rocking? I suspect that you'll lose more power than the extra grip is worth in friction running rubber that wide (to say nothing of unsprung mass in the wheel/tyre: this is bad because it's extra weight in the first place and also out of direct control from a suspension point of view) You'll also almost certainly need arch extensions.

From a track handling point of view, ride height only really becomes an issue when you're talking about extreme power levels (think F1/supercars etc...) where ground effects and aerodynamic eng of underside become very relevant to keeping the car from flipping. Assuming you're at a sensible sort of height then in this class rebound control is much more relevant (this would be assumed in the above nutjob scenarios to be taken care of as a matter of course). A certain amount of height is required or you risk bottoming out at speed on an uneven surface (shouldn't apply to track use).

My two pennies say that you will get much more performance for your cash with standard style spring and damper suspension than coilovers which until you get to the megabuck range are much more about show'n'shine wicked low cars than they are about handling and performance. The ability to tune rebound rate is far more valuable to you on a track than the ability to tweak your ride height with a c spanner or whatever. This isn't to say that there aren't performance oriented coilovers (they do fit them to Porsches etc, after all) but you spend a lot more cash to get them than you would on a decent set of regular dampers and springs. Bear in mind that the 'poundage' (ie, stiffness) of the springs is all important - this is what is actually doing the work of the suspension, the strut itself is called a 'damper' for a reason - it's there to tame the rebound and keep it all under control.

I think your first real think should be about getting some ARBs on there if you haven't already and either replace as many of your standard bushes/top mounts etc as you can with new OEM stock or uprated components (you would be surprised how much of an improvement even standard spec oem bushes make on an old car if you haven't tried it) and stick some decent tyres on the wheels you have and take it from there, possibly bolting a suspension kit in on the way.

Suj is dead right that bigger wheels aren't necessarily better. Unless you get insanely expensive superlight alloy jobs that would be wrecked by standard road use, bigger wheels are almost always heavier, in addition to needing bigger tyres (more weight) and causing more drag (wider tread=more friction).

Bigger rims makes it easier to run lower profiles without messing up your gear ratios/clocks/geometry etc, and lower profiles mean less 'tyre tuck under' - this is similar to body roll and makes a mess of your cornering precision. Lower profiles generally cost more and ride harder. They aren't necessarily a good thing in seriously bad weather (which you aren't likely to have on a track anyway). For track use, lower sidewall profile is a good thing. For comfort it is a seriously bad thing.

I see the point that 15x50 gives a wider choice of tyres, but I'm not sure it's relevant here as there are also very good tyres available in 16x45, and plenty of choice of real tyres in this size, just that 'budget' tyre at this sort of size is 50-60 quid and you can expect to see internet lists of around 75-100 quid a tyre. I generally get my Yokies around the £130 mark for a pair by shopping the tyre places in the north east around my Dads place. I tried this in Sheffield recently and gave up; all I could get around Sheff was no-name rubbish for real tyre money. I ended up getting tyres from a certain discount website that delivers to a certain *ahem* national chain of tyre fitters for no-extra charge installation and got good branded tyres for less than the rubbish the local guys wanted to flog me. It pays to shop around, but everywhere is different is the lesson here.

Incorrect offset will certainly cause rub on full lock, but I have still heard of a car that had not changed its wheels/done anything silly with spaces or whatever that rubbed on one particular brand/model of tyre. The tyres were later swapped for a different brand/model and the issue never happened again before or after. Weird.

The bigger brakes are a good thing so long as you never plan to put smaller wheels than 15's on (because 14's will not clear the disc/caliper anymore).

The standard 15's and 16's are 6" wide, this will let you get to at least 205 which should be plenty without adding silly amounts of power so long as you pick decent sticky tyres (which won't last as long)

Your standard offset should be ET38. Varying from this will make getting geometry right harder and lead to issues like rub additionally.

The real problem you're going to have is that what makes for a good track car is a huge pain (and extremely tiring) to use as a road car, precisely because it'll be so twitchy, harsh and follow every camber on the road.

If you can have two sets of wheels, a set of road wheels and a set of track wheels is a good thing as it means you can consider more exotic/expensive tyres for track that you wouldn't want to wear out in day to day driving. The track tyres are going to see way more scrub from extreme cornering forces anyway.

Not sure where I got the thing about Cordy track width from, happy to admit I'm totally wrong here; I'm obviously mixing Ibiza's/Cordy's with something else, and I suspect it's old Peugeots, not that it matters.
 

eurorob

Active Member
Feb 4, 2010
70
0
wow, that has to be the most perfect responce to any post if ever ive seen one, thank you so muchfor the in put and advice.
my car is pretty much standard, just has a rear box, de-silesered in the middle and an induction kit, still running standard power i imagine, i have always wanted to keep the engine as standard as poss as i always feel its more reliable this way, its a 2.0 8v 115bhp so not too much grunt, power doesnt bother me too much i like my cornering and only tend to do the smaller tracks croft,cadwell,oulton so out and out power isnt realy my thing, id much rather have a good handeling car than anything, i'll keep my eyes out for different wheels, id had seen the team dynamics 1.2 multispoke ones before i bought the ones i have now, although getting mine super cheap was one issue but prob not my best choice in life,
many thanks once again for all the info
 

suj

Wheel Connoisseur
Jan 1, 2009
5,808
1
Birmingham
Have a read of this Wheel Guide I made on here, as sometimes wheels can be confusing (and I was getting asked a lot of times by people)

http://seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=275166

Some people struggle, but I just seem to understand it, if you need help, just PM, I don't mind helping.

To put into perspective.

If you got them 16x8J wheels, and they were ET38....this means it is 2J (2 inch) wider, but same offset, this means it will be 1J wider on each side....so inside clearance will be 1inch (25.4mm) smaller, and outside will poke 25.4mm more, so if it hits the strut, you will have to space it, but then it might need archwork to get to fit legally lol.

It can be a headache sometimes ;)
 

jcs356

Cordy owner
Jul 12, 2004
1,161
0
Englandland
...I see the point that 15x50 gives a wider choice of tyres, but I'm not sure it's relevant here as there are also very good tyres available in 16x45, and plenty of choice of real tyres in this size, just that 'budget' tyre at this sort of size is 50-60 quid and you can expect to see internet lists of around 75-100 quid a tyre...

Agreed, for road use there is plenty of choice for 195/45/16s and they aren't that much more expensive than 195/50/15s.

What I was trying to say is that for track specific tyres there is far less choice in the 16 inch size - e.g. you can't get Toyo R888s in 195/45/16. Dave R ended up with 205/45/16 but then had rubbing issues due to the extra width.
 

jcs356

Cordy owner
Jul 12, 2004
1,161
0
Englandland
... my car is pretty much standard, just has a rear box, de-silesered in the middle and an induction kit, still running standard power i imagine, i have always wanted to keep the engine as standard as poss as i always feel its more reliable this way, its a 2.0 8v 115bhp so not too much grunt, power doesnt bother me too much i like my cornering and only tend to do the smaller tracks croft,cadwell,oulton so out and out power isnt realy my thing...
Upping the power doesn't necessarily mean lack of reliability. My 8v Ibiza was rechipped up to mid 130's bhp in 1998 and didn't have a single engine related problem with it until it got scrapped earlier this year.

I took as much weight as I could out of the car and this combined with the handling mods and the slightly higher than stock power meant it would keep up happily with valvers.

Unfortunately my white 8v met its maker back in April and I now have the Cordy valver instead, which is both familiar yet completely different!

When you've decided on some trackdays stick a post in the 'Other Events' section on the forum and I'll see if I can make it as well.
 

eurorob

Active Member
Feb 4, 2010
70
0
will do, going to get xmas out of the way before booking anything but i have heard of one at oulton park in jan, open pit, 105db £110 so is a possibility with it being so cheap
 

Dave_R

Save a Sheep...Buy Brembo
Sep 20, 2004
3,666
1
South Wales
I haven't read the thread fully because I'm on the iPhone with shitty signal while I wait for my board band to be connected in the new house so sorry if I repeat anything.

I would agree with Jason with the spacers & arb's the arb's were one of the last things I fitted and I wish it was the first thing I had done! The improvement is amazing, they expensive but are worth it, as a rule of thumb to give more front end grip you get a rear arb and to improve rear end grip get a front one, I fitted the rear first (easiest to fit) and the turn in felt great was like the car was on rails but the back end was very livery until I fitted the front to suit.

I've had my rear shimmed, not many people do it but involves the rear stub axel to be removed and shims fitted to suit. I had that done along with the car corner weighted and tracking set up by Centre Gravity coat £560 but was a full days worth of work and getting the car corner weighted and balanced just brings all the handing mods into one and gets it all perfect!

Like I said Centre Gravity was expensive and I now use Aviva Autos near me, racing experience was a little tweak on Centre Gravity's work and the car felt even better but Aviva won't do the rear shimming. Camber bolts aren't needed as there is a small adjustment on most aftermarket suspension.

If you getting into track days I would def recommend a diff as well! For a car that's everyday road use then a ATB type diff is ideal for you.

I've done a lot with suspension and handling to my Ibiza so you are welcome to read my thread lol.

The the tyres it's been mentioned that I had problems with the R888's in 16" form out of the two sizes they do one is too wide the others are too big in profile and wont fit but I have come across Kumho V70A's that have had very good reviews. From my experience when at Pembrey on a wet trackday, I was running the V70's mate in a 200SX running Hankook RS2's and a VX220 with R888's... On a damp track I was the only one getting any temperatures in the three and finding grip. The latest Track Driver mag is about to do a performance test this month on varies track day tyres so waiting to read about that.

Hope this helps :)


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