Oil Filter cap not budging :(

[verbal_kint]

When I got this car I found the cap was leaking oil, went to check it and it was damn tight - but nothing like israars'.
Found that they had 2 main seals, so obviously had not removed the old, they must have kept tightening it to stop the leak.

 

[Israar]

I've never had any trouble using the Halfords-style pressed steel cup wrench, but then I've never had to use a big breaker bar on the filter cap either. The cap has a deep set of threads that engage in the filter holder, but the seal is made by the O-ring (that should come in the kit with the filter - three O-rings altogether, two small ones for the stalk inside the plastic cap) so tightening it up beyond 25Nm (which is not much more than hand tight) doesn't give you a better seal... You have to wonder where some of these guys get their ideas from.

The O-ring is not compressed when you tighten up the cap, it sits inside the cylindrical filter holder, the torque setting is just to make sure the cap does not undo itself.

Perhaps the previous owner did it up to 25 ft-lb? But even that is only about 35 Nm, and shouldn't result in this kind of trouble.

I would try increasing the undoing torque with the cup wrench you have. It should not cam off the lid, it fits all the way round so there should be nothing to make it come off other than flex of the steel - and if you get to that point, it is a long way overdone.

Yeah, it definitely makes you wonder where their ideas come from haha! :O

I'll give the cup wrench another go after work in the morning with my torque wrench and get back to you on whether it flexes or not as I never actually pay'd much attention to watching whether it flexed or not, I'm still definitely going to get a new cap though when Dave is back!

Thanks again for everyone commenting, I really appreciate this community as it's one of the rarer kinds!

--Lee

 

[Muttley]

Thanks again for everyone commenting, I really appreciate this community as it's one of the rarer kinds!

It's sometimes called "paying it forward". I got help here when I first had a TDI 90 Ibiza and had limp mode problems - identified as EGR coking up the valve and inlet manifold resulting in overboost. Something I'd never have thought of without the cues from here

I did also work with another Seat forum, but they had a lot less traffic, and were never as helpful. I've not been back there for some time.

So I've tried to give a bit back, and in the process learned a lot more about the TDI engine and Mk.4 Golf derived cars (and now Mk.5, with the Altea)

 

[MOZ_LC_TDI]

I have the halfords one too and it has worked fine for me on both my Leon and my Merc ML, so should be fine, having said that if its that tight I would worry a little about its short depth. It's fine for use once you are correctly sorted but I could see you struggling if it's as tight as it seems. Especially if yours is like mine and the ratchet shaft protrudes through into the useable depth rather than it having a convenient ratchet connection ( adequate but poor design in my opinion - however is cheap and works for 99% of situations.

All the best.
Moz

 

[Israar]

It's sometimes called "paying it forward". I got help here when I first had a TDI 90 Ibiza and had limp mode problems - identified as EGR coking up the valve and inlet manifold resulting in overboost. Something I'd never have thought of without the cues from here

I did also work with another Seat forum, but they had a lot less traffic, and were never as helpful. I've not been back there for some time.

So I've tried to give a bit back, and in the process learned a lot more about the TDI engine and Mk.4 Golf derived cars (and now Mk.5, with the Altea)

I can honestly say you've helped me out that much I can't quite put a number to it haha! But as always, it's appreciated!

I'm quite like you, when I can help, regardless of how small, I will try. I grew up with old school morals, so I value morals over ethics and my grandmother once said to me, a simple smile will get your further than opening your mouth, wasn't until I grew up that I realised what she meant haha! Bless her soul!

I have the halfords one too and it has worked fine for me on both my Leon and my Merc ML, so should be fine, having said that if its that tight I would worry a little about its short depth. It's fine for use once you are correctly sorted but I could see you struggling if it's as tight as it seems. Especially if yours is like mine and the ratchet shaft protrudes through into the useable depth rather than it having a convenient ratchet connection ( adequate but poor design in my opinion - however is cheap and works for 99% of situations.

All the best.
Moz

Unfortunately this Laser tool is just stretching, I've got 2 choices, try the tool Fmxvxx suggested with a bar which I am going to order after replying to this thread, or butcher it. Though butchering isn't something I want to do, I'd rather it be a last resort once I have a new cap from Dave!

I set my torque wrench to just over 100Nm so it goes to show just how tight the little sucker is!

Looks like I fit in to the 1% of situations hehe!

--Lee

 

[Muttley]

Wow, that's seriously overtightened. Hopefully the cast tool will get it loose, with maybe a big breaker bar (the mind boggles). I hope you don't have to smash it, as getting all the bits of plastic out will be challenging...

 

[verbal_kint]

Just throwing a really silly thought out there, and because I've done it myself, you are turning it the correct way to undo...

 

[Israar]

Wow, that's seriously overtightened. Hopefully the cast tool will get it loose, with maybe a big breaker bar (the mind boggles). I hope you don't have to smash it, as getting all the bits of plastic out will be challenging...

Tell me about it haha! I'm with you on that as I'd rather not have to smash it because that job will be very tedious!

Just throwing a really silly thought out there, and because I've done it myself, you are turning it the correct way to undo...

Nothing silly about that thought mate, it has been done albeit not by me (not concerning this hehe!).

I'm trying to open it anti-clockwise, clockwise is to lock, I even double checked myself to make sure the first time when I'd undone the sump plug =)

Luckily enough, on my cap it shows the 25Nm torque so you know how tight it needs to be and also shows you an arrow in which way to tighten it with the torque setting, so it's like a "for dummies" which if I'd not have asked and had the proper information from Muttley prior to checking, I'd have known regardless just by seeing my cap!

Thanks again though, as said above; Nothing silly about that thought as it can and has been done prior!

--Lee

 

[MOZ_LC_TDI]

Good luck,
Not wanting to add depressive negative thoughts, but if its that tight then it may be that the filter hasn't been changed in a long while. i.e. if the previous owner couldnt get it undone they may have just changed the oil and not bother with the filter. then another year of drying out and heat cycling making it even harder to remove. I wouldnt totally trust a garage to be truthful either if they struggled to get it off and decided not to bother but not tell you - I personally have had many experiences with all sorts of garages (including very reputable places) where I have had good evidence and suspected short cuts.

I'm pretty sure that was the case with my VR6 when I had a similar problem years ago.

I'm sure it will be fine even if its not been changed for a couple of services and doubt there will be any damage, but definitely worth persevering and getting it off and the filter changed, for your own piece of mind.

I agree that the lazer tool is a bit flimsy for a situation like yours.

I would go with teh deeper tool rather than trying to break the cap cos even if you break it, if the thread is that tight on the oring seal then I would suspect the brittle plastic cap will disintegrate (obviously potentially dropping hard bits into the oil filter housing ) but also I would suspect the threaded part will stay intact and still be as tight, and then even harder to remove as no cap to lever on, meaning you may need to find a way of cutting through the plastic to the thread risking more cuttings in the oil and also risk of damaging the thread of the casing. If you can avoid purposefully breaking the cap i would recommend that (obvious I know - but I think even as a last resort breaking the cap may be still very difficult and problematic to finally get the threaded part out.

Good luck, i'm sure you will get it off soon.

Moz

 

[doski]

you tried some stilsons?

 

[Nam-uk]

when i first did an oil change on my leon that cap was seriously tight,getting the engine upto normal operating temp helped allot, i only hand tighten it now with the cup removing tool and wrench, got a torque wrench but never used it.

 

[Israar]

Good luck,
Not wanting to add depressive negative thoughts, but if its that tight then it may be that the filter hasn't been changed in a long while. i.e. if the previous owner couldnt get it undone they may have just changed the oil and not bother with the filter. then another year of drying out and heat cycling making it even harder to remove. I wouldnt totally trust a garage to be truthful either if they struggled to get it off and decided not to bother but not tell you - I personally have had many experiences with all sorts of garages (including very reputable places) where I have had good evidence and suspected short cuts.

I would go with teh deeper tool rather than trying to break the cap cos even if you break it, if the thread is that tight on the oring seal then I would suspect the brittle plastic cap will disintegrate (obviously potentially dropping hard bits into the oil filter housing ) but also I would suspect the threaded part will stay intact and still be as tight, and then even harder to remove as no cap to lever on, meaning you may need to find a way of cutting through the plastic to the thread risking more cuttings in the oil and also risk of damaging the thread of the casing. If you can avoid purposefully breaking the cap i would recommend that (obvious I know - but I think even as a last resort breaking the cap may be still very difficult and problematic to finally get the threaded part out.

Good luck, i'm sure you will get it off soon.

Moz

Thanks Moz mate, not taken that way either haha!

I had actually had this thought crop up a few times to be honest, because there is no way it should be this tight not after just a year gone by. I'm a strong believer in my own gut instinct and my gut instinct has been telling me that it's been skipping when I had the full service done when I bought the car in honesty. Though with knowing next to nothing I would have been very easily mislead and fooled in to believing it was done.

I've got the breaker bar and the deeper cup wrench tool, both marked as dispatched as of 15/07 estimated delivery for them are separate. One for today and one for tomorrow, though both only estimates so if I'm lucky both could arrive today, if not sometime next week! Either way, sooner the better so I can replace this oil filter asap!

I'd rather stay away from damaging the cap, that's one route I really don't want to take at all, once I'm done with this oil filter change I'll be having a new cap on the way from Dave at Sere and my next interval will include the new cap!

Again, thanks mate and it will DEFINITELY come off soon! :grin:

you tried some stilsons?

Unfortunately I don't own a pair of these, though I'm not positive it would do me any good!

Cheers for the suggestion though matey!

when i first did an oil change on my leon that cap was seriously tight,getting the engine upto normal operating temp helped allot, i only hand tighten it now with the cup removing tool and wrench, got a torque wrench but never used it.

Cheers mate, I've even had the engine up to normal running temps after a blast down to and back from Kidderminster, didn't budge one little bit.

Random and out of the blue Nam mate, but where about's in Atherton are you from? I'm originally from up Tyldesley mate haha, I wouldn't be surprised if you know someone from my family being up that way!

--Lee

 

[Nam-uk]

If it's that tight it sounds cross threaded and if that's happened they need a blue peter badge just for that, I whould get a replacement just in case you damage it ,remember to get the O ring as well. Ask Dave at sere on here, not sure how much they are, you may need to buy an engine just for cap lol ,
Also were did you get that deep cup wrench tool? I am useing the silver line one and it has limited room for the 1/2 wrench I have to back it off a little to get the wrench fully in
I am near central station mate been here years.

 

[Israar]

I'm hoping it's not cross threaded, that's going to drop a right ball if that's happened.

I'm definitely getting a replacement, awaiting on response from Dave, I posted a message yesterday close to shut down time for them so wasn't expecting a response yesterday! Lmfao, might have to buy an engine just for an engine cap hahaha, quality!

It's from eBay, the one Fmxvxx posted mate, Vag Oil Filter Removal Tool 3417. Not sure if it will make much of a difference to the one you're using but I also bought the 1/2" breaker bar too that he posted (600 mm) it's got an adjustable angle head.

Central station, that's just off Bolton Road if I'm correct? At least I hope I'm correct haha! Central station is just making me think of the train station!

Next time I'm up that way, I'll have to drop by if you fancy it mate? Didn't realise someone lived so close to my home ground from here!

--Lee

 

[Nam-uk]

Dave might be on holidays, he has more hols than the queen lol
That does look a bit deeper there is also something on top to fit the wrench fully in , will look later as that might be last on unless Amazon have it.

That's it train station mate , just give a pm next time your up here

 

[Israar]

Dave's got me a nice quote with postage, only just seen it though so asked for him to order me one for £10.

It's definitely deeper, both tools came today will post up a comparison in a bit for you too see mate and will definitely pm you next time I'm up my mothers way!

--Lee

 

[Israar]

Right, now I'm certain that this hasn't been changed in a long time, tried the new tool just that Fmxvxx kindly posted a link to, used that with a 600 mm breaker bar and the new cap, which is a lot stronger and fits on to the plastic cap snug and deep, is doing the same thing the laser tool did. Basically just jumping to the next side so to speak.

It's literally not budging at all. To say I'm rather off is an understatement right now. I'm guessing my only option right now is to either butcher the cap (as to which I can't do until I have the new one from Dave which will be sometime next week perhaps as soon as I can order it with him) or to try a chain filter wrench which should disperse the pressure evenly around the cap to undo it albeit in the process of damaging the cap I'll still need to wait for the new cap.

I really cannot believe someone would skip an oil filter or for that matter tighten a plastic cap to this extent, it's seriously bewildering. I can honestly say who ever has done this needs a right good slap around the chops because it's just wrong on all aspects!

Ahh well, at least the weather is lovely, eh?

--Lee

 

[Muttley]

Well, at this point we know the tool isn't flexing, so it must be the cap that is flexing under the load, which is quite scary enough as it means it's in danger of breaking.

A chain wrench will tighten to try to avoid slippage, but at this stage it's touch and go whether it eventually slips or crushes the cap. I'd certainly wait for a new cap to be on hand before you go that far, like you've already said.

I suppose one other possibility is go get it as hot as you dare, then immediately go and try to get it off with the cast tool.

Good luck . . .

 

[ben450]

I'd have ripped the whole thing out by now. Some people shouldn't be allowed cars

 

[Israar]

Cheers Muttley mate, just took the kids with me to Halfords to get this for the time being until I can get another replacement cap.

I'm Humming and arring over taking the car for a blasting when I take the kids back tonight and trying it to see if it will open or not, though I'm 50/50 as to whether or not the cap will actually give way.

With these caps, are they solid all the way through or not? Would chain pressure at the lowest end of the cap towards the metal housing be able to take the squeeze of the chain under pressure or would it possibly just capsize in itself?

Ben I can agree with that mate, though I'd have loved to have had this cap off by now, it's doing my tree in, I'm really eager to see how bad my filter might be. I had the image pop in to my head earlier of it being torn and worn out, though what I find when I get this cap off will only be known once it's off

--Lee