Cupra wheel hop, sorted...
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Safest is to check your car. One way to do it is to slide your phone under on a piece of cardboard with video and flash on and take a screenshot of the mount when you find it
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On which side underneath the car please?
...mostly anyway
Thought I'd share my impression on a little mod I have been bombing around with for the last few weeks that seems to have improved my Cupra from a great car with a pretty large and annoying fly in the ointment to a fantastic car and as a real Brucey bonus it only costs about £50 to do.
I do like detail, so this may be a case of TL;DR or teaching your granny how to suck eggs for some, but for those of you sick of the wheel hop stick with me and I'll explain it as best I can, for the rest who don't want the waffling, skip to the TL;DR bit
Anyone who has driven a Cupra with a bit of gusto will probably have experienced the two scenarios:
1) You give it a bit of beans from a standstill and you get a handful of annoying wheel hops which sound like the car has fallen off a set of jack stands about 5 times in rapid succession
2) You are driving around giving it the beans when you hit a relatively small imperfection in the road (roundabouts were my favourite) and you get that falling off the stands noise again
Neither of these events were something that I was happy with in my new car so I did a little digging into wheel hop and the MQB platform.
If you really want to know the nerdy science I found this article quite helpful http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20061012a/
Long story short after a bit of digging on mainly the USA based forums for the Golf GTI Mk7 the common consensus was the weak link was the Torque Arm or Lower Engine Mount, specifically the bushing. This part prevents the engine from rocking back and forth too much while under power by use of an arm attached to the engine, it also dampens some of the vibrations from the engine.
This arm is bolted to the cross-member using a bushing... a bushing which, as far as I can discern, is shared across the MQB platform... yep the shame rubber bushing that stops a 1.4TSI 138bhp lump from rocking back and forth under its own steam is doing the same job for the 2.0TSI 276bhp lump. While I get the whole "shared platform to keep costs down" thing, I would have thought it would be wise to beef up certain areas of a car for higher output models, certainly seen as this is only one of three mounts bolting the powerplant to the chassis.
Now the fix, basically, is to stiffen this bushing up so it can't flex too much, however stiffen it up too much and you will feel every vibration through the engine.
There are a number of retailers that already sell fixes in various guises for this issue, one is the "VWR Uprated Lower Engine Mount and Torque Link", a pretty fearsome looking bit of kit, however for me it looks like it would be too stiff (makes Kenneth Williams noises), it requires a lot of work to get it fitted and it isn't cheap. The expense bit isn't really the issue but my car spends most of its time on the motorway and I don't fancy having my eyes vibrated out while travelling up the M5, also if there is an issue with the car and I need to take it to SEAT, I'd like to be able to remove the mod, for obvious reasons, in half an hour as opposed to half a day.
Answer? Torque Arm insert.
It is basically a moulded piece of Polyurethane that fits inside the gaps of the stock bushing, it will firm up the bushing making the car less prone to wheel hop but is easy to install and remove.
Two companies make these, Neuspeed and Black Forest Industries. BFI do two compounds, street and track, Neuspeed do one street compound. I picked Neuspeed as it was easily available in the UK and looked like a better design.
Both items fit in pretty much the same way, you remove the bolt running through the stock bushing, pop the insert in and bolt it back together using a specially designed washer. In BFI’s case you also use their own supplied bolt.
Just incase you were wondering, here are the fitting instructions for the two:
www.neuspeed.com/media/attachments/345_22.10.92.pdf
http://blackforestindustries.com/FSitems/MQB_Torque_Arm_Insert_Instructions.pdf
TL;DR
Hi again! I fitted the Neuspeed Torque Arm Insert a couple of weeks ago and I have been impressed, it cost £55 from a VWG Specialist and required 30 minutes of my time to fit.
I would say 80-90% of the wheel hop has been eliminated, it is harder to provoke and when it does hop, it does it for less than half the time it did before and it is nowhere near as vicious. It now feels as if it has gone over a small bump at about 30mph as opposed to falling off a cliff.
Personally I have not noticed a huge difference in shifting as I have a DSG car, but it does feel a little more immediate when I nail it and a little less “rubbery” when accelerating, not a huge difference I’ll admit.
The insert does transmit a small amount of vibration into the car, depending on your viewpoint it can be either a good thing or a bad thing, for me I like it. The car seems a little more vocal and communicative and less clinical now as you can feel what the engine is doing a bit more, it’s nothing offensive just a little fizz you can feel as a driver. It also seems to produce a nice roar in the cabin when you’re having fun, but it doesn’t sound fake like the Soundaktor nor is it intrusive.
Some of the USA forums have reported annoying vibrations in various situations such as idling, A/C on etc, there are only two times I really notice it.
First is starting the engine, it has a bit more of a kick to it but it lasts a fraction of a second, it could be annoying if you use start/stop 20x a day and/or are really sensitive but I am not bothered by it.
Second is reverse and I’ll be brutally honest here if it vibrated while idling, moving, or with the A/C on like it does in reverse, I would remove the insert. It only feels vibey in reverse with no brake applied (again DSG car), it isn’t shaking your eyes out but if it happened while going forward it would quickly become tedious, my thinking however is how much time do you spend in reverse? For the amount of wheel hop it has quashed it is a pretty small sacrifice.
At some point I will probably try the BFI Track Insert but I suspect that would be too harsh for a daily driver.
For anyone who has stuck through to the end of my essay, I hope this helps and it will be released in Paperback come the New Year
In this original review you stated that the same mount is used for the 1.4 engine (which i have) does this mean the same mod would have the same effect? As even on the 1.4 150ps stage 1 mapped to 205ps suffers with cruel wheel hop.
If this is correct does anyone know which version of the 034 would be needed?
Finally decided to get this bought for mine lol only been running Stage 2 for 2.5 years, did as you said a quick video of underneath and my MY2014 needs Type 1 as well.
You need to visually check under the car to see which one you have. Read posts above.
BTW I recommend the Powerflex insert(s), didn't like the zing when the 034 tab catches on the mount under power and mine (and other's) bent which reduce their effectiveness (unless 034 have updated them since).
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Speaking of type 1, if anyone needs one I have mine still as awesomeGTI won't take it back due to it having light damage on it...there is nothing structurally wrong with it at all, it's just a bit marked is all and some of the metal is scratched in places if not a little worse in others. Still works perfectly fine but i have no use for it now.
If anyone is interested at having it, obviously at a discount, PM me and we can sort something out. I also have pictures of it in it's current state too showing the condition.
Still very much enjoying mine, completely dried up again here so no chance of testing wet weather, but at least tonight i'll be able to test colder conditions (lol "colder") so hey, there we go. Just absolutely love how it now sounds louder, the pickup is even sharper and wheels feel like they will almost never get away from you.
@Trettiosjuan.
Yours BENT?! Jesus, the piece I have looks and feels so damn solid I can't imagine it giving in anytime soon. How long ago did you get yours? Also, are the powerflex ones poly or metal, what makes you choose them more so? Not sure what you mean by zing on the 034, the only added vibration (if you can even call it that, rumble?) I get is under power and it's a much nicer, crisper sound of the engine working and it's so subtle that it just sounds like you can hear it working. I've only had mine a week though so perhaps I need to see how it goes in 12 weeks times, but for bending wow, i'd be furious if that happens to mine, especially as it's only (currently) 180 BHP and 250 NM
If anyone is interested at having it, obviously at a discount, PM me and we can sort something out
. I also have pictures of it in it's current state too showing the condition.Still very much enjoying mine, completely dried up again here so no chance of testing wet weather, but at least tonight i'll be able to test colder conditions (lol "colder") so hey, there we go. Just absolutely love how it now sounds louder, the pickup is even sharper and wheels feel like they will almost never get away from you
.@Trettiosjuan.
Yours BENT?! Jesus, the piece I have looks and feels so damn solid I can't imagine it giving in anytime soon. How long ago did you get yours? Also, are the powerflex ones poly or metal, what makes you choose them more so? Not sure what you mean by zing on the 034, the only added vibration (if you can even call it that, rumble?) I get is under power and it's a much nicer, crisper sound of the engine working and it's so subtle that it just sounds like you can hear it working. I've only had mine a week though so perhaps I need to see how it goes in 12 weeks times, but for bending wow, i'd be furious if that happens to mine, especially as it's only (currently) 180 BHP and 250 NM
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I've just fitted the powerflex bush; I've not had a chance to try it in anger yet, but starting, reversing and pottering around there are no noticeable negative effects. I will post back when I've tested it properly. I will keep an eye on how it wears too, although powerflex boast a lifetime warranty... 
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok mine is a Cupra so perhaps worse. The 034 basically bolts on the center damped part of the bushing, and under acceleration the front and rear tabs are the ones that push against the outside undampened parts of the bushing. So unlike a rubber (Urethane) insert that is just compressed in its material, the 034 insert takes the whole engine torque as a bending force on the front and rear tabs. So they bend until they can't anymore (compressing the rubber on the inside of the tabs). So then there is some play before they catch on. I do have a near silent exhaust and the sound actuator disabled, but also in comfort I found the added engine noise under acceleration annoying with time (at first I thought it was cool... Did not last)
Anyhow, more posts from me on this here: http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=428450
The Powerflex is Urethane, they also make different versions depending on the mount (unlike other brands), and come in 4 different hardnesses depending on your priorities...
Weird. I hasn't seen exactly seen the most positive things on NONE solid mounts due to wear, some, i've even seen MELT and crumble under the car and get almost sealed in: http://i62.tinypic.com/dx0ppc.jpg
How would the urethane be any different? Does it have higher thresholds? All the things i saw about the none metal versions pushed me to the metal one hence 034s.
I think i see the issue though, to you it's about personal taste. I absolutely LOVE hearing the engine noise, my 16 model does not have a "sound actor" in sport mode (or any mode) so i've always loved how it sounds under load, now, I just love it even more as the 1.8 TSI is fantastic, I would argue it's better than the 2.0 but hey...going off topic into personal preferences now!
And i think that is also the final thing about it, to you, you didn't like it, to me, I do. The 16 model is probably a bit more refined that older cupra models, however...you are rocking a 100 more HP than me (well, more like 90 currently hehe) so i could understand how on a more powerful car, perhaps the metal is under TOO MUCH stress and is more likely to bend? Your discussion seems to be from nearly a year ago now, so perhaps they are thicker now the version 2, from looking at your pictures, my verison 2 looks different in that is has a more thicker bracket, it still slides in easy, but feels damn solid.
TL;DR I've been completely unable to make mine wheelhop at all, which is fantastic. Couldn't be happier personally.
How would the urethane be any different? Does it have higher thresholds? All the things i saw about the none metal versions pushed me to the metal one hence 034s.
I think i see the issue though, to you it's about personal taste. I absolutely LOVE hearing the engine noise, my 16 model does not have a "sound actor" in sport mode (or any mode) so i've always loved how it sounds under load, now, I just love it even more as the 1.8 TSI is fantastic, I would argue it's better than the 2.0 but hey...going off topic into personal preferences now!
And i think that is also the final thing about it, to you, you didn't like it, to me, I do. The 16 model is probably a bit more refined that older cupra models, however...you are rocking a 100 more HP than me (well, more like 90 currently hehe) so i could understand how on a more powerful car, perhaps the metal is under TOO MUCH stress and is more likely to bend? Your discussion seems to be from nearly a year ago now, so perhaps they are thicker now the version 2, from looking at your pictures, my verison 2 looks different in that is has a more thicker bracket, it still slides in easy, but feels damn solid.
TL;DR I've been completely unable to make mine wheelhop at all, which is fantastic. Couldn't be happier personally
.
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If you're happy, that's great.
Just wanted to balance that the 034 doesn't work for all. Here's some considerations on both:
The rubber inserts have been used for long on many cars by many insert manufacturers, that picture is not from our cars. A badly made 'rubber'/urethane insert that has low grade material and a bad fit which causes additional friction and heat might very well melt and disintegrate. That is why a good fitting one made for your exact mount is important. Some consumers have also wrongly slated them when they thought it was burnt black, however that was just minor discoloration from the original black mount transferred by the silicone grease one uses.
If you drive very hard all the time (on track), either a rubber or metal insert probably won't cut it, either melting or the metal tabs rubbing and destroying the original mount - the whole engine torque and vibration sits on an area no bigger than your thumb on either metal tab.
If either happens, you'll probably want to change the whole mount for a solid rubber mount anyway.
But for most consumers the simple cheap inserts seem to work fine.
The Neuspeed was in excellent discoloured condition after 10k miles when I changed it for the harder Powerflex. Oh, and that would be about 170bhp more that I'm running now, cheers
Just wanted to balance that the 034 doesn't work for all. Here's some considerations on both:
The rubber inserts have been used for long on many cars by many insert manufacturers, that picture is not from our cars. A badly made 'rubber'/urethane insert that has low grade material and a bad fit which causes additional friction and heat might very well melt and disintegrate. That is why a good fitting one made for your exact mount is important. Some consumers have also wrongly slated them when they thought it was burnt black, however that was just minor discoloration from the original black mount transferred by the silicone grease one uses.
If you drive very hard all the time (on track), either a rubber or metal insert probably won't cut it, either melting or the metal tabs rubbing and destroying the original mount - the whole engine torque and vibration sits on an area no bigger than your thumb on either metal tab.
If either happens, you'll probably want to change the whole mount for a solid rubber mount anyway.
But for most consumers the simple cheap inserts seem to work fine.
The Neuspeed was in excellent discoloured condition after 10k miles when I changed it for the harder Powerflex. Oh, and that would be about 170bhp more that I'm running now, cheers
If you're happy, that's great.
Just wanted to balance that the 034 doesn't work for all. Here's some considerations on both:
The rubber inserts have been used for long on many cars by many insert manufacturers, that picture is not from our cars. A badly made 'rubber'/urethane insert that has low grade material and a bad fit which causes additional friction and heat might very well melt and disintegrate. That is why a good fitting one made for your exact mount is important. Some consumers have also wrongly slated them when they thought it was burnt black, however that was just minor discoloration from the original black mount transferred by the silicone grease one uses.
If you drive very hard all the time (on track), either a rubber or metal insert probably won't cut it, either melting or the metal tabs rubbing and destroying the original mount - the whole engine torque and vibration sits on an area no bigger than your thumb on either metal tab.
If either happens, you'll probably want to change the whole mount for a solid rubber mount anyway.
But for most consumers the simple cheap inserts seem to work fine.
The Neuspeed was in excellent discoloured condition after 10k miles when I changed it for the harder Powerflex. Oh, and that would be about 170bhp more that I'm running now, cheers
Yeah, fair play. Must admit, those powerflex ones do look good from the pictures, really nice.
Quick noob question, when looking for my car, it gives a choice between "rear beam" or "multi link" versions of the leon fr, what does this mean? Is is something to do with if the model has the IRS or not? I've looked at both parts on the both versions and the exact number for the model I would have, in this case: PFF85-832P for part 5Q0198 037 B so I'd assume that's the one I'd get.
I'd go for the Track one too I'd think if it seems to be as similar to the 034 insert (for me in terms of wheel hop reduction virtually reduced to nothing, and louder engine noise), quite like that Purple look lol. Plus especially as i'll be getting to roughly 230hp from my map soon and an custom exhaust in the future most likely too i'll pushing closer to 250hp anyway all things combined so, I do wonder how the 034 insert will cope, the guys reckon it can handle a stage 1 MK7 Golf R easily before perhaps a more "full" modification would be required so, I'll take there word for it for now and see how it goes
, will certainly consider the Powerflex if it still provides louder engine noise and reduces the wheel hop, so far for mine, to zero-ish (not tried in heavy rain yet, simply won't rain lol).
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Yeah, fair play. Must admit, those powerflex ones do look good from the pictures, really nice.
Quick noob question, when looking for my car, it gives a choice between "rear beam" or "multi link" versions of the leon fr, what does this mean? Is is something to do with if the model has the IRS or not? I've looked at both parts on the both versions and the exact number for the model I would have, in this case: PFF85-832P for part 5Q0198 037 B so I'd assume that's the one I'd get.
I'd go for the Track one too I'd think if it seems to be as similar to the 034 insert (for me in terms of wheel hop reduction virtually reduced to nothing, and louder engine noise), quite like that Purple look lol. Plus especially as i'll be getting to roughly 230hp from my map soon and an custom exhaust in the future most likely too i'll pushing closer to 250hp anyway all things combined so, I do wonder how the 034 insert will cope, the guys reckon it can handle a stage 1 MK7 Golf R easily before perhaps a more "full" modification would be required so, I'll take there word for it for now and see how it goes
You are correct, the beam or multi link refers to the rear axle, anything over 150bhp has multi link rear. Shouldn't affect the mounting though.
Nice one, thanks Kaz.
Finally managed to have proper go in rain earlier today! Can happily say, that even with silly amounts of throttle, the "thrashing bricks and ajckhammer thumps" of the stock axle tramp is gone completely, it is now massively, massively reduced to the point where you can actually respond to the feedback from the wheels, which makes you feel much more in control of when you are losing grip to then regaining it.
I would go as far to say it's all but "bitey wheel skip" as opposed to "thrashy axle/wheel tramp" which is wonderful. It ofc still bounces a tiny bit when being silly, but it certainly does not feel like something is trying to shake apart the entire front end using a jackhammer from underneath. It's more like a skippy rumble that is pretty tame with the amount of torque pushing through, so I am exeptionally pleased this insert has helped dramatically.
The majority of situations it's just a light skip and bite which is the perfect amount of feedback under hard load, but now, I feel 100% more confident in the wet, and will never need to fear any slight amount of hop in the dry. It feels tighter, more feedback oriented, plants the power in and down between gears much more fluidly and on top of it all, makes the engine note come through the cabin sound great! Really feels like you push the car harder, faster, for longer which is exactly what these cars all in are designed for, to be driven and to be driven properly.
Hooray for these types of mods, simply excellent value and props to the manufacturers! Makes you wonder why tech like this is not stock across all powerful FWD cars.
Finally managed to have proper go in rain earlier today! Can happily say, that even with silly amounts of throttle, the "thrashing bricks and ajckhammer thumps" of the stock axle tramp is gone completely, it is now massively, massively reduced to the point where you can actually respond to the feedback from the wheels, which makes you feel much more in control of when you are losing grip to then regaining it.
I would go as far to say it's all but "bitey wheel skip" as opposed to "thrashy axle/wheel tramp" which is wonderful. It ofc still bounces a tiny bit when being silly, but it certainly does not feel like something is trying to shake apart the entire front end using a jackhammer from underneath. It's more like a skippy rumble that is pretty tame with the amount of torque pushing through, so I am exeptionally pleased this insert has helped dramatically.
The majority of situations it's just a light skip and bite which is the perfect amount of feedback under hard load, but now, I feel 100% more confident in the wet, and will never need to fear any slight amount of hop in the dry. It feels tighter, more feedback oriented, plants the power in and down between gears much more fluidly and on top of it all, makes the engine note come through the cabin sound great! Really feels like you push the car harder, faster, for longer which is exactly what these cars all in are designed for, to be driven and to be driven properly.
Hooray for these types of mods, simply excellent value and props to the manufacturers! Makes you wonder why tech like this is not stock across all powerful FWD cars
.
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Torque?
I went to Awesome GTI today and picked one of these up. Didn't come with any instructions.
What is the consensus on torque for the insert then? I'm interested in knowing what the manufacturer states, and what others have done?
I went to Awesome GTI today and picked one of these up. Didn't come with any instructions.
What is the consensus on torque for the insert then? I'm interested in knowing what the manufacturer states, and what others have done?
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