Bye bye Leon, Hello Golf

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
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Tampere, Finland
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You have the ST 4drive isn't it? Else was wondering how can a FWD do better than a 4wd on an ice track...were u guys using studded tyres or just regular winters?

I was one of the few with regular (friction) tyres while almost everyone else (S3 included) was on studs.
There was even a TT Quattro with rally (non road legal) spikes that he changed while at the track - he was the fastest, of course.
I did surprisingly well with the friction tyres but struggled the whole event to get the front to grip.
 

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
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633
Tampere, Finland
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I greatly doubt that. For instance, a turbo manufacturer makes two types of the same turbo, one for Audi and one for SEAT? Or QC rejects an Audi unit and it then goes to SEAT?
Then extend that to all the thousands of parts in a car? Suppliers would suggest that VAG make love elsewhere.
The reason they use the same parts is cost amortisation. Buy more parts, pay less unit cost.

Talking about tolerances here - not a faulty part.
Imagine for instance that Audi would allow a 0,05% variation in a turbo fan or bearing movement and Seat would allow a 0,1%... That would mean that a part that is not faulty would not be used by Audi but instead by Seat.

- and answering in general under to clarify for other comments in the thread -

Yes, I am speculating - if it would all be the same, no one would pay more for Audi ;)
...you just need to drive one to understand the differences are obvious.
On the Golf? Dunno... Had a courtesy Golf one time my car was in for service and there was nothing special about it, but, as in the Leon, there are different trims and also different year cars have different interiors and materials (e.g. Pre-facelift vs Facelift).
As to the reliability, could it be because Audis and VWs on those surveys are company cars with rough life that get exchanged earlier and the Seats and Skodas are cars the owners hold on to longer and take better care of because of that?
I cannot take those figures unless I know more about how they were collected and if the demographics are the exact same... Which, let's face it, it isn't - Audi owners and Seat/Skoda owners are substantially different, starting with the fact the former know where to find the blinker ;)
 

Mr Pig

Active Member
Jun 17, 2015
2,614
906
Imagine for instance that Audi would allow a 0,05% variation in a turbo fan or bearing movement and Seat would allow a 0,1%...

I've never seen anything to support that idea. Reliability issues seem consistent across the brands using the component.

Manufacturing is sufficiently slick these days that it's not hard to spit out parts that meet spec. VW don't make the majority of these bits, they are built by outside suppliers, and parts not meeting spec is likely to be an issue which VW would just ask to be sorted out. Having the same part floating around in the supply chain built to different tolerances would be unbelievably complicated and problematic. They're just not going to do it.

You may well have the same part built by multiple manufacturers with the attendant variations that might introduce. That's a known issue.
 

LouG

Active Member
Dec 1, 2017
1,319
481
Nelson, New Zealand
Talking about tolerances here - not a faulty part.
Imagine for instance that Audi would allow a 0,05% variation in a turbo fan or bearing movement and Seat would allow a 0,1%... That would mean that a part that is not faulty would not be used by Audi but instead by Seat.
;)

I don't believe so. That would require a very different part for each brand. The costs would be ridiculous.
 

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
1,037
633
Tampere, Finland
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I don't think you understand quality control and manufacturing.
The same manufacturer, part, factory, assembly line and machine have variations when mass producing.
The same machine, during the day, might start in the morning with a part that only deviates 0.05% from the manufacturer specs and by the end of the day, after it gets warm, after material passes through it, after it moves, the same part from the same machine will have lower quality - meaning that the shape might be slightly off - one again, note that we are talking extremely minimum differences.
At the end of the assembly line there should be a quality control guy that will check the batches and measure to make sure that the machine doesn't need adjusting and will also mark the parts as per the quality rating.
If something is completely off, of course it is rejected and doesn't leave the factory.
But if the deviation from the norm is minimal, it might still be "good enough" for a certain brand (Seat/Skoda) but not for Audi or VW.
I cannot believe this concept is so hard to understand, but this is the last time I try to explain it... Honestly, these are very minimal variations and might only make a difference after many years of usage of a car.
Either way, we have come to mostly agree on everything related to the OP on this thread, so... I give up trying to explain this quality control variation concept ;)
It is my field of work and I sometimes assume everyone knows what I am talking about :)
 

Mr Pig

Active Member
Jun 17, 2015
2,614
906
I don't think you understand quality control and manufacturing.

I worked in it for thirty years so I think I might. I do understand what you are saying but it's very unlikely to happen. I say that because I can think of an instance where a small manufacturers does exactly what you suggest but a car parts supplier, just not going to happen. The parts will either be within tolerance or they will be rejects. Anything else would be far too complicated to manage.
 

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
1,037
633
Tampere, Finland
www.youtube.com
I worked in it for thirty years so I think I might. I do understand what you are saying but it's very unlikely to happen. I say that because I can think of an instance where a small manufacturers does exactly what you suggest but a car parts supplier, just not going to happen. The parts will either be within tolerance or they will be rejects. Anything else would be far too complicated to manage.

I was genuinely not replying to you - from your previous post I could tell already you knew what I was trying to say ;)
 

RUM4MO

Active Member
Jun 4, 2008
7,784
983
South Scotland
A large car manufacturer building differing products for their many marques, like VW Group will always rationalise the number of differing parts used, ie keep the part numbers to a minimum to hold manufacturing costs down. Strict QC/QA will be in place at all outside manufacturers production sites, as said many times, all types of parts will have a unique part number and so VW Group will always have the choice to source that same part from any of their suppliers as single sourcing is just too risky, so where ideally a certain engine or car plant would get supplied from its nearest outside supplier source, some times that for any reason can change.

Having said that, one thing that has always annoyed me about SEAT is who they source the plastic/rubber strap for the fuel filler cap as they always seem to harden and fail after only 6 or so years, our previous 2000 VW Passat and 2002 VW Polo straps looked as good as new after 13 years use, the strap on my 2011 Audi S4 and my wife's 2015 VW Polo also look as good as new - the strap on my daughter's April 2019 build Leon Cupra looks like it only has a few years life left - and that is not acceptable to me, SEAT should be checking what is going wrong at that supplier and correcting it. I can't comment on Skoda fuel filler cap retaining straps though!
 

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
1,037
633
Tampere, Finland
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Actually, parts manufacturing rights was what killed Saab - brace for the off-topic:

Years ago Saab was struggling and Spyker bought them from GM, although GM still retained a lot of decision power on certain items.
When Spyker needed a cash ballin to keep Saab alive, they were approached by a Chinese consortium that would.invest heavily in the brand, BUT...
...that would have also give them the rights to manufacture parts, which were common for many GM group brands (such as Opel/Vauxhall, Pontiac, etc.)
That would drive the cost of parts out and the market would be flooded with cheaper Chinese made parts.
This was something that GM couldn't allow and hence they froze the deal and it spelled the death of Saab, something I am bitter to this day - loved my 9-3 Aero 2.8V6T, a car that I decided to purchase 3 mins into the test drive ;)
I literally drove out of the shop that was near to the entrance of a motorway and accelerated to merge after I quickly made it through a couple of roundabouts - by the time I was in, I was sold on the car.

Ok, back to topic ;)
 

RUM4MO

Active Member
Jun 4, 2008
7,784
983
South Scotland
These nasty sh1ts GM killed off SAAB, plus SAAB's being stubborn over not using off the shelf solutions, a bit like what drove Citroen into Michelin ownership early on its life after over spending on the hydraulics design and a repeat of over spending on design then drove Michelin to hand them over to Pug - and still they are dreaming up ways to improve suspension systems, though now their new owner has demanded that they limit that design work to within the actual damper assemblies - or they will surely get closed down.

I admired the line that SAAB were taking, but they should have been smart enough to avoided being bought over by GM many years ago, you need to make money if you are a business, and SAAB seemed to forget about that!

Edit:- my best friend currently owns a 1974 96 and a 2006 9-5 estate, and before that has owned too many 96, 96, 99, 90, 900 9-3 and 9-5 - his car for driving longer distances is now unfortunately a VW T-Roc as his wife gets very annoyed when their older SAABs need trailered home! I'm sure that he still hopes to buy one of the last SAABs if one ever comes up for sale, though as they were rushed to the market, I feel that they might not have been sorted out properly to reflect that brands values!
 
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Mr Pig

Active Member
Jun 17, 2015
2,614
906
Actually, parts manufacturing rights was what killed Saab...

I thought it was the fact that they made a ridiculously narrow range of oddball cars that were only bought by dentists and accountants?
 
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Just out of curiosity as all the cars run on the MQB Platform who actually builds the engine / drivetrain (and other common parts for that matter.

I know there are difference in engine Maps and some parts (Injectors, Sparks and engine cover / cold air intakes but the basic kit is the same is it not, do they get build by VW and shipped to Seat or do Seat build them by themselves.
 

Jaco2k

AWD FTW
Mar 11, 2018
1,037
633
Tampere, Finland
www.youtube.com
In the Skoda forums, at some point, they said Skoda was now building all the engines - not sure if that is true for the higher powered ones also, but after the whole chain tensioner failure fiasco, the later generation of 1.2 and 1.4 TSi engines were all Skoda made for all the brands in the group.
 

Kirky

Copper Cupra Advocate
Apr 10, 2019
1,042
497
Actually, parts manufacturing rights was what killed Saab - brace for the off-topic:

Years ago Saab was struggling and Spyker bought them from GM, although GM still retained a lot of decision power on certain items.
When Spyker needed a cash ballin to keep Saab alive, they were approached by a Chinese consortium that would.invest heavily in the brand, BUT...
...that would have also give them the rights to manufacture parts, which were common for many GM group brands (such as Opel/Vauxhall, Pontiac, etc.)
That would drive the cost of parts out and the market would be flooded with cheaper Chinese made parts.
This was something that GM couldn't allow and hence they froze the deal and it spelled the death of Saab, something I am bitter to this day - loved my 9-3 Aero 2.8V6T, a car that I decided to purchase 3 mins into the test drive ;)
I literally drove out of the shop that was near to the entrance of a motorway and accelerated to merge after I quickly made it through a couple of roundabouts - by the time I was in, I was sold on the car.

Ok, back to topic ;)
I loved my 05 9-3 Aero 2.0T. Did 130k miles in it and it never let me down once. I was extremely sad to let it go.
 

cupra14

Active Member
Aug 31, 2017
332
63
England
But if the deviation from the norm is minimal, it might still be "good enough" for a certain brand (Seat/Skoda) but not for Audi or VW.

Of course, and it would have to get a different part number for each case. I work in an industry where that is exactly what happens and is pretty much the norm.

That does not seem to be happening for our cars (unless you can provide evidence to the contrary?).
 
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