Water meth injection

bigT's lcr · Nov 18, 2019

So just when i think im ready for the stage 2 map i have ANOTHER idea lol.
So question is with standard internals on my 2003 lcr bam, could i add water meth injection with a stage 2 setup and not bend the rods. Been told numerous times they are good for 300 ponies. Any thoughts?
Current engine mods:
Big forge fmic
All boost pipes silicone
N249 delete
Pcv delete
Oil catch can
Big silicone TIP
forge 008p recirc valve
K&N typhoon induction cone
3" DP non res cobra 3" exhaust
Ngk irridium spark plugs

lightup · Nov 18, 2019

Isnt meth used for cooling also. I run 305bhp on stock engine

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bigT's lcr · Nov 18, 2019

lightup said:
Isnt meth used for cooling also. I run 305bhp on stock engine

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Ye its more the hp/lbft torque increase im thinking about. Ive read it can give about 20 to 30 bhp increase? 305!? No issues then? Is that with a standard k04?

lightup · Nov 18, 2019

No it drives great. And i put it down in 1,2nd also since 4wd. 306ft torque. No i got k04-023 hybrid.

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R3k1355 · Nov 18, 2019

I don't think you'll see a big increase just running water/meth, you've already got a decent cooling setup.

You might be thinking of Aux-fuel injection or just running straight Meth.

mty12345 · Nov 18, 2019

It's torque that bends rods and 300 ft/lb on standard rods will be pushing your luck, especially now they are 16 years old.

lightup · Nov 18, 2019

the vag tuner here says 317ft is absolute max and pushing it. even if i put octane 102 for fuel im still below 317ft. a really big factor is also how the torque comes in. torque spikes tend to bend rods. if you have a good tune with a smooth curve its a lot saver.

bigT's lcr · Nov 18, 2019

R3k1355 said:
I don't think you'll see a big increase just running water/meth, you've already got a decent cooling setup.

You might be thinking of Aux-fuel injection or just running straight Meth.

Maybe an 80 -20 % meth water mix?

bigT's lcr · Nov 18, 2019

lightup said:
the vag tuner here says 317ft is absolute max and pushing it. even if i put octane 102 for fuel im still below 317ft. a really big factor is also how the torque comes in. torque spikes tend to bend rods. if you have a good tune with a smooth curve its a lot saver.

The dyno showed a nice smooth curve yesterday

bigT's lcr · Nov 18, 2019

mty12345 said:
It's torque that bends rods and 300 ft/lb on standard rods will be pushing your luck, especially now they are 16 years old.

Do you know what my k04's max bhp could be?

lightup · Nov 18, 2019

Your torque is nice and even abroad the powerband. But still far below 300ft. Can bw higher

I think around 280hp should be doable with the right mods. Some push up to 290/300

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Sparkie · Nov 19, 2019

Lots depends on the life of the car and state of the mods done.
My car struggled with a dodgy turbo and didn’t hit 250 brake.
New turbo and I was up to 270 +
Down pipe hadn’t been changed when exhaust was done
( naughty boys ).
New downpipe n cat sections saw another 13 horses and 20 additional lbs of torque ( which takes it close to 300 lbs )
Now close to rod bending but safely done.
Car may have had a little more in it but we stopped session there to be safe.
Good part is, I can use every ounce of power I have and I do while on track, with no ill effects.
I’d expect similar figures to be achievable.

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R3k1355 · Nov 19, 2019

bigT's lcr said:
Maybe an 80 -20 % meth water mix?

Even then it's only really injected to cool the intake charge and lower knock, but since your intake is already low with a massive intercooler the benefit would only be running more timing which you'd be hard pushed to see 20-30bhp from, and if you did it'd be a fairly risky tune.

bigT's lcr said:
Do you know what my k04's max bhp could be?

Everything perfect you can just about squeeze 300 out of a 1.8T with the K04, give yourself half a chance and get a new CHRA with a billet compressor wheel in.

bigT's lcr · Nov 20, 2019

R3k1355 said:
Even then it's only really injected to cool the intake charge and lower knock, but since your intake is already low with a massive intercooler the benefit would only be running more timing which you'd be hard pushed to see 20-30bhp from, and if you did it'd be a fairly risky tune.

Everything perfect you can just about squeeze 300 out of a 1.8T with the K04, give yourself half a chance and get a new CHRA with a billet compressor wheel in.

This was my original plan to go hybrid but thought id bend the rods.

lightup · Nov 22, 2019

if you stay under or around 300ft tq you should be fine. at least on a well serviced engine.

DOLBY · Nov 22, 2019

Ok first up you won't bend rods on 300 ft/lbs. Over the years thousands of cars have passed through this forum pushing much more than 300 ft/lbs. I don't know where someone summoned that figure from...yes when it gets into the 320-340 range you are defo asking for trouble.

To get your 300 bhp figure you need to look into an exhaust mani first and foremost but most don't do this as it requires a lot of ball ache.

People only ever bent a rod when they were running Wot boxes (which I suppose is akin to modern day no lift shift or pops and bangs on their map). You can't honestly believe constantly banging and popping is good for the car or even gaining any HP?

Age in certain aspects does have downsides but most of the time these cars have been looked after well so modifying after 16 years shouldn't be an issue as they were built for a fast road life.

I have WMI. Should have got it long ago but didn't want to keep buying the Gogo juice every couple months. It won't give you torque or horsepower but it should make the car happier to apply more power on the map by playing with timing. It should prevent knock or detonation. Yes it works like a higher premium fuel but added power? Nope. Buy it and use it as car feels happier on it. Wouldn't you feel better drinking a cold drink whilst your running? Same scenario.

Only reason these cars are making 300+ now is cos they are getting older and looser. They certainly weren't designed to go past 300 and they didn't for a long time.

bigT's lcr · Nov 22, 2019

DOLBY said:
Ok first up you won't bend rods on 300 ft/lbs. Over the years thousands of cars have passed through this forum pushing much more than 300 ft/lbs. I don't know where someone summoned that figure from...yes when it gets into the 320-340 range you are defo asking for trouble.

To get your 300 bhp figure you need to look into an exhaust mani first and foremost but most don't do this as it requires a lot of ball ache.

People only ever bent a rod when they were running Wot boxes (which I suppose is akin to modern day no lift shift or pops and bangs on their map). You can't honestly believe constantly banging and popping is good for the car or even gaining any HP?

Age in certain aspects does have downsides but most of the time these cars have been looked after well so modifying after 16 years shouldn't be an issue as they were built for a fast road life.

I have WMI. Should have got it long ago but didn't want to keep buying the Gogo juice every couple months. It won't give you torque or horsepower but it should make the car happier to apply more power on the map by playing with timing. It should prevent knock or detonation. Yes it works like a higher premium fuel but added power? Nope. Buy it and use it as car feels happier on it. Wouldn't you feel better drinking a cold drink whilst your running? Same scenario.

Only reason these cars are making 300+ now is cos they are getting older and looser. They certainly weren't designed to go past 300 and they didn't for a long time.

Cheers for the input man, did u go meth before the con rod upgrade? Just a little unsure as i keep getting mixed feed back but i think you're the only one whos chipped in who has actually done it on simular set up (correct me if im wrong please

) also is it a switch? As in use when preferred or is it a constant set up? Thinking of doing the straight from screen wash tank as it has a level sensor and i dont know how to put one in another thank (yet) basicly im doing ALL the work myself as i learn it. Just my preference. IE ; Wont go stage 3 untill i know hiw yo build an engine. Only been in motor trade 18month so not done too bad lol

DOLBY · Nov 22, 2019

bigT's lcr said:
Cheers for the input man, did u go meth before the con rod upgrade? Just a little unsure as i keep getting mixed feed back but i think you're the only one whos chipped in who has actually done it on simular set up (correct me if im wrong please ) also is it a switch? As in use when preferred or is it a constant set up? Thinking of doing the straight from screen wash tank as it has a level sensor and i dont know how to put one in another thank (yet) basicly im doing ALL the work myself as i learn it. Just my preference. IE ; Wont go stage 3 untill i know hiw yo build an engine. Only been in motor trade 18month so not done too bad lol

Yeh no worries mate.
No I forged my engine back in 2013 used AKS tuning to build it. I don't think Alex touches 1.8t engines anymore. I only forged it due to relentless posts about bending rods etc etc. At the same time I got my exhaust manifold put on (as obviously it's a tricky SOB). The WMI has only been on a few months actually.

Fair play you doing the fitting yourself, I didn't want to as I would only mess something up. DevilsOwn Bruce has a brother that fits these kits so I used him. Took a full day and I travelled miles.

Anyway, you can get a progressive kit where you can control when you want it to spray etc and add additional nozzles. That looks like a complicated kit to fit but if you're on a big turbo set up it's advisable. I went for the entry level one where it's set once (think mine is programmed to spray at 0.8-1 bar) and sprays constant until you back off throttle.

Even with entry level you can opt for a low level sensor. I think mine was fitted under dash. It's a green light. Will flash if tank is very low. Obviously my car has not had timing adjusted yet to **** the WMI but will be shortly. Always advisable (actually most mappers will refuse to) to not get it meth dependant for obvious reasons.

My nozzle is mounted down by intercooler piping. The pump is in the spare wheel cavity. Perfect fit even with the wheel in there. I have a 4 quart tank fitted in boot held by cable ties. This is a perfect size. I would imagine I go through full tank every 1.5 tanks of petrol. I recommend the Devil's Own kit and you can also buy the devil juice already mixed which saves me time.