Petrol DPF or PPF or GPF (Take your pick!). Experience or rumours.

[Steve Caney]

I have a MY2019 2.0 Tsi 190 FR Sport. It has one of the above filters as part of the exhaust systems. New Cupra's have them too.

My first question is, does anyone know exactly where this filter is in the exhaust system.?
Pictures or drawings would help.

2ndly. what experience have people had of these Filters. Their reliability, or any other feedback (Even rumours!)

I had a VAG 1.8 tsi on my previous car and I had it mapped. I also removed the 1st CAT (Cold start CAT filter) by drilling the mesh complete out and replacing the exhaust. ( Thus improving the Turbo spool etc).

Is it possible to do the same to the PPF? ( I dont think so as I expect the system needs a proper PPF delete doing.... ) Would it still pass emissions test?

What are peoples thoughts on this

 

[BigJase88]

GPF keep it in place, there was a big article that REVO tuning did recently on the effects it had on the Cupra, the GPF is not a massive bottleneck for power and should be left in place as MOT places will become strict on things that effect emissions

 

[HighFlyingBird]

CarWow did a test between an RS3 with a GPF and without a GPF and there's barely a difference between the two, one performs slightly better than the other from a rolling start but it's only noticeable at licence ban speeds

 

[SRGTD]

GPF keep it in place, there was a big article that REVO tuning did recently on the effects it had on the Cupra, the GPF is not a massive bottleneck for power and should be left in place as MOT places will become strict on things that effect emissions

@Steve Caney; As well as the emissions implications, removing the GPF may also invalidate your insurance. How would insurers know? If you’re unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident, your car may be inspected by your insurance company. Wouldn’t want to think a fellow forum member was left high and dry by their insurers because they’d removed their car’s GPF.

 

[BigJase88]

See here

Can explain in much more detail than I ever could

https://www.onlyrevo.com/blog/all-n...N11CtxEq0LaA4yhulyWFQtNKdjOeS8or9IqhztlaSTnNc

 

[Steve Caney]

Thanks Guys re keep it i place.... but where exactly is it... and how reliable is it.
I have read articles that it could become clogged just like a DPF and require expensive fixes.
Has anyone heard any real stories that could prove or disprove this, or is it more a case of wait and see?

 

[BigJase88]

I think it is too early to tell on the longevity of the gpf.

like everything with cars these days, parts get more complex and more expensive to fix, it’s just how it goes i’m afraid. Will only get worse when we go full electric, be buying 10 grand battery packs left right and centre

 

['Little' John]

Thanks Guys re keep it i place.... but where exactly is it... and how reliable is it.
I have read articles that it could become clogged just like a DPF and require expensive fixes.
Has anyone heard any real stories that could prove or disprove this, or is it more a case of wait and see?

I've heard that the thing that you need to really to worry about is the switch to single port injection. There are a few threads on here about problems with coking up?

 

[BigJase88]

I've heard that the thing that you need to really to worry about is the switch to single port injection. There are a few threads on here about problems with coking up?

Wouldn’t believe all you read on the interweb, they will be fine.

 

[The Daily Meme]

Thanks Guys re keep it i place.... but where exactly is it... and how reliable is it.
I have read articles that it could become clogged just like a DPF and require expensive fixes.
Has anyone heard any real stories that could prove or disprove this, or is it more a case of wait and see?

As long as you continue to use the low SAPS motor oil recommended in the hand book, and treat the GPF the same way you would a DPF by makjing sure your car gets a good run every now and then to burn off the ash in the filter, you should be able to make it last a long time. Without particulate filters fitted, the particulate emission rates for a well maintained petrol engine are lower than that of a diesel engine. Meaning that a GPF of comparable spec to a DPF would last longer than that of a DPF. IF you plan on owneing a car for 3-5 years and do 10,000 miles a year, it is unlikely that you would need to worry about it.

As for how they work, they are basically a seive for soot in the exhaust the comes about as a result of the additives in fuel and motor oil is burnt in the engine. Motor oil companie shave been developing fluids with lower and lower SAPS (the compounds that produce ash in te exhaust when burnt) for years now. In addition, car manufacturers add the particulate filters to the exhaust to filter out any soot or ash that wasn't already mitigated by the low SAPS fluids.

The difference between a cold start diesel with and without a DPF is night and day. For GPF, difficult to say as it has not been common place for very long how much a difference it really makes in terms of cold start emissions.

below is a diagram explaining how they work. The mesh is a matrix of porus tubes. Think of a bird feeder, a long tube with lots of holes in. As the car burns fuel, and ash builds up, these tubes begin to fill up with ash. As the exhaust gets up to temperature the ash begins to burn off. However, if you are doing lots of short journeys where the exhaust is not able to get up to temp, these ashes will build up over time to the point where it starts to restrict the flow of exhaust gasses which will affect performance.

The alternative is active regens where the ECU will add fuel to try and maintain higher exhasut temperatrures to prevent ash build up. Resulting in a drop in fuel economy.

Here is a diagram of a DPF that demonstrates the principle of the tubes filling up and restricting exhaust flow.

In terms of their location in the exhaust, they are usually fitted downstream of the catalytic converter, and in the case of the Cupra ST, in the palce of the resonator. Some cars are fitted with 4-way catalyst coated GPF's which combine the catalytic converter and gpf into the same part.

 

[Nora2004]

The biggest issue for the Cupra's is the total lack of noise now, they are pretty silent compared to the pre OPF model! That's the main reason alot of people want then removed, I'd agree, they sound gash!

 

[Rookiereece]

I thought petrol cars were supposed to be much less polluting than diesels, I cant wrap my head around why they felt the need to develop a GPF, worlds gone Mad!

 

[Peller]

As long as you continue to use the low SAPS motor oil recommended in the hand book, and treat the GPF the same way you would a DPF by makjing sure your car gets a good run every now and then to burn off the ash in the filter, you should be able to make it last a long time. Without particulate filters fitted, the particulate emission rates for a well maintained petrol engine are lower than that of a diesel engine. Meaning that a GPF of comparable spec to a DPF would last longer than that of a DPF. IF you plan on owneing a car for 3-5 years and do 10,000 miles a year, it is unlikely that you would need to worry about it.

As for how they work, they are basically a seive for soot in the exhaust the comes about as a result of the additives in fuel and motor oil is burnt in the engine. Motor oil companie shave been developing fluids with lower and lower SAPS (the compounds that produce ash in te exhaust when burnt) for years now. In addition, car manufacturers add the particulate filters to the exhaust to filter out any soot or ash that wasn't already mitigated by the low SAPS fluids.

The difference between a cold start diesel with and without a DPF is night and day. For GPF, difficult to say as it has not been common place for very long how much a difference it really makes in terms of cold start emissions.

below is a diagram explaining how they work. The mesh is a matrix of porus tubes. Think of a bird feeder, a long tube with lots of holes in. As the car burns fuel, and ash builds up, these tubes begin to fill up with ash. As the exhaust gets up to temperature the ash begins to burn off. However, if you are doing lots of short journeys where the exhaust is not able to get up to temp, these ashes will build up over time to the point where it starts to restrict the flow of exhaust gasses which will affect performance.

The alternative is active regens where the ECU will add fuel to try and maintain higher exhasut temperatrures to prevent ash build up. Resulting in a drop in fuel economy.

Here is a diagram of a DPF that demonstrates the principle of the tubes filling up and restricting exhaust flow.

In terms of their location in the exhaust, they are usually fitted downstream of the catalytic converter, and in the case of the Cupra ST, in the palce of the resonator. Some cars are fitted with 4-way catalyst coated GPF's which combine the catalytic converter and gpf into the same part.

I have been led to believe that DPF and GPF are totally separate technologies. The DPF as per above diagrams are 'soot catchers' that require burning off via various methods.

The GPF/OPF is a passive system due to the burning of gasoline at higher temperatures. Due to the increased temps in petrol engines the exhaust gases are hot enough to react with the components within the GPF as they pass through (the engine has to be up to operating temp for this to happen)

The impacts are minimal apart from acting as an extra muffler.

There are some impacts with the VAG group engines such as slightly increased RPM when cooling down due to extra pumps running after a hard run but everything is well within tolerances, although I leave mine running until all the 'whirring' stops after a minute before turning off.



Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

 

[cupra14]

I thought petrol cars were supposed to be much less polluting than diesels, I cant wrap my head around why they felt the need to develop a GPF, worlds gone Mad!

The chase for ever better MPG and also ever lower pollution has meant Direct Injection and cunning ruses to add less fuel (so-called stratified fuel and other buzzwords), but that raises soot (among other things).

Not to old-school diesel levels but enough that a filter (GPF) is fitted to some (many?) newer cars.

It shouldn't surprise that an electric motor may be the next step...

 

[The Daily Meme]

I have been led to believe that DPF and GPF are totally separate technologies. The DPF as per above diagrams are 'soot catchers' that require burning off via various methods.

The GPF/OPF is a passive system due to the burning of gasoline at higher temperatures. Due to the increased temps in petrol engines the exhaust gases are hot enough to react with the components within the GPF as they pass through (the engine has to be up to operating temp for this to happen)

The impacts are minimal apart from acting as an extra muffler.

There are some impacts with the VAG group engines such as slightly increased RPM when cooling down due to extra pumps running after a hard run but everything is well within tolerances, although I leave mine running until all the 'whirring' stops after a minute before turning off.



Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I used that picture as there aren’t any decent diagrams out there of a GPF but there are lots of different types of GPF. For the most part they are passive but they still have an element of “soot catching” for them to be a particulate filter in the first place.

 

[Mr_G]

We've had the 2.0TSi (190) from new since July 2019 and mostly do <5 miles journeys with the odd longer one thrown but once a week without fail did a 10mile each way trip which seemed to be enough to keep the filter happy.

Since mid December that's not been the case and a week or so ago started to experience lumpy running and poor MPG (https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/2-0tsi-190-lumpy-running-and-poor-mpg.458273/), the consensus is that the GPF is doing a forced regen - so like a diesel they need a decent run out every so often but seem to cope better with them being less frequent and shorter distances than a DPF would

On a side note the price / spec list that applied when we ordered our car lists the the 2.0TSi as having both port and direct injection, not sure how to check this is actually the case though.

 

[cupra14]

I saved links about the extra MPI (if present)
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/upl...mb.jpeg.97938caeb41c6700322e0a6cefe92940.jpeg
https://www.briskoda.net/forums/upl...mb.jpeg.dc64282632f495a8a9a449d727552946.jpeg

Also, the idea is schematically shown almost at the bottom of this
https://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=617123&page=3

 

[Harry Bolton]

I suspect the new Cupra on the next platform will sound ok again.

Its an afterthought on this engine/car.

If you listen to something like the Megane RS 300 it is very loud and pops a lot and that has a filter. So it can be worked around for noise when the manufacturer designs for this.

 

[KernelOkey]

I suspect the new Cupra on the next platform will sound ok again.

Its an afterthought on this engine/car.

If you listen to something like the Megane RS 300 it is very loud and pops a lot and that has a filter. So it can be worked around for noise when the manufacturer designs for this.

Its all about the exhaust, my R ST with Remus opfback exhaust sounds great

 

[LR231998]

They need a proper exhaust that’s why. Pretty sure Renault etc develop them with the top exhaust manufacturers So get a nice noise from a filtered system. Whereas Seat (even my 290 with a so called upgraded “sports exhaust” from the 280) haven’t developed them properly and are too quiet with no life in them.