Downpipes and stage 2 options for MY19/GPF cars

[queen]

An engine with only direct injection sooner or later will have carbon build up.
From what I can remember the models that came with factory MPI were only used for emissions reasons under light driving.
Maybe the tuner can modify the injectors to provide more fuel throughout the rpm.
Apr released an mpi kit for N.A. vehicles as they came only with DI. https://www.goapr.com/products/fueling_ea888_gen3.html
I don't know if it's a direct fit to our vehicles and what level of modification is required or if it can even be fitted at all.
Imho the problem lies more with the tune as none of the big names have released stage 2 let alone stage 3 or more.
Don't get me wrong I've got nothing against custom tunes (had one in my previous car) but it's a bit hit or miss when it comes to reliability and support.
They should have put dual injection on all of the new EA888 Gen 3 engines.

 

[Mikertroid]

[QUOTE="r@d00, post: 4918768, member: 117028

Besides the weight reduction and comfort increase, a strong reason to change the rims was that stock rims did not accommodate the bigger brakes (the bigger width was the problem, not the height) and I didn't want to use spacers. Neuspeed rims are very good at clearing big brakes, but they are also pretty expensive...[/QUOTE]

What rims are you using?

 

[r@d00]

@Mikertroid Neuspeed RSe10 18x8

 

[r@d00]

Apr released an mpi kit for N.A. vehicles as they came only with DI. https://www.goapr.com/products/fueling_ea888_gen3.html
I don't know if it's a direct fit to our vehicles and what level of modification is required or if it can even be fitted at all.

I saw that MPI kit before making the stage 3 changes, but as it was developed for the previous generation engine, I considered too risky and expensive to try it and possibly fail.

Imho the problem lies more with the tune as none of the big names have released stage 2 let alone stage 3 or more.
Don't get me wrong I've got nothing against custom tunes (had one in my previous car) but it's a bit hit or miss when it comes to reliability and support.

Stage 2 or 3 with the current generation engines also means GPF deletion, which might not be ok in some countries... Maybe this is a reason not to openly advertise them.

They should have put dual injection on all of the new EA888 Gen 3 engines.

Absolutely, but VW preferred to save money, since the GPF took care of the emissions. I would have paid more for dual injection if it was an option...

 

[J Peterman]

An engine with only direct injection sooner or later will have carbon build up.
From what I can remember the models that came with factory MPI were only used for emissions reasons under light driving.
Maybe the tuner can modify the injectors to provide more fuel throughout the rpm.
Apr released an mpi kit for N.A. vehicles as they came only with DI. https://www.goapr.com/products/fueling_ea888_gen3.html
I don't know if it's a direct fit to our vehicles and what level of modification is required or if it can even be fitted at all.
Imho the problem lies more with the tune as none of the big names have released stage 2 let alone stage 3 or more.
Don't get me wrong I've got nothing against custom tunes (had one in my previous car) but it's a bit hit or miss when it comes to reliability and support.
They should have put dual injection on all of the new EA888 Gen 3 engines.

I'm retrofitting the ROW intake manifold with secondary fuel rail for OEM+ port injection on my NAR 1.8T Golf 4Motion Estate (EA888 Gen3) in order to go Stage 3 with a hybrid turbo. The part numbers can be found here:

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...harness-leads-on-buying-it-separately.362328/

I bought a ROW intake manifold (from a ClubSport with <100miles) complete with secondary fuel rail, stock injectors, injector harness, and ethanol sensor shipped to the States for <200 Euros from Holland on ProxyParts. Any Euro Ebay site should have these available. I don't have the part number for the harness to the ECU, but there are multiple aftermarket options (Precision Raceworks, APR, CTS, IROZ). You then buy upgraded injectors for the secondary fuel rail.

MPI (with upgraded low pressure fuel pump) is the ultimate fueling upgrade at this time on the MQB platform with direct injection vehicles. Retrofitting the ROW manifold with OEM+ parts is the cheapest option. It’s a very popular upgrade here in the States, no idea what effect it may have on passing emissions in the E.U. however.

 

[queen]

I saw that MPI kit before making the stage 3 changes, but as it was developed for the previous generation engine, I considered too risky and expensive to try it and possibly fail.
Stage 2 or 3 with the current generation engines also means GPF deletion, which might not be ok in some countries... Maybe this is a reason not to openly advertise them.
Absolutely, but VW preferred to save money, since the GPF took care of the emissions. I would have paid more for dual injection if it was an option...

Iirc stock injectors are good for about 500bhp like most of the internals/parts. As with other DI cars you can fit bigger ones if you want to go higher. 800cc-1000cc are very popular here.
Given that gpf isn't as restrictive as everyone thought, it's possible that we'll start to see more tuners not going the gpf delete route for stage 2.
Now for stage 3 and above, as I've seen a few times, several things can go wrong when you have many different parts maxed out, so I don't think keeping the gpf would be wise.
I would pay more for mpi too! If only..

I'm retrofitting the ROW intake manifold with secondary fuel rail for OEM+ port injection on my NAR 1.8T Golf 4Motion Estate (EA888 Gen3) in order to go Stage 3 with a hybrid turbo. The part numbers can be found here:
https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/inde...harness-leads-on-buying-it-separately.362328/
I bought a ROW intake manifold (from a ClubSport with <100miles) complete with secondary fuel rail, stock injectors, injector harness, and ethanol sensor shipped to the States for <200 Euros from Holland on ProxyParts. Any Euro Ebay site should have these available. I don't have the part number for the harness to the ECU, but there are multiple aftermarket options (Precision Raceworks, APR, CTS, IROZ). You then buy upgraded injectors for the secondary fuel rail.
MPI (with upgraded low pressure fuel pump) is the ultimate fueling upgrade at this time on the MQB platform with direct injection vehicles. Retrofitting the ROW manifold with OEM+ parts is the cheapest option. It’s a very popular upgrade here in the States, no idea what effect it may have on passing emissions in the E.U. however.

Going MPI will be more oem-look in my opinion. Couldn't you fit bigger injectors, or was it just for the price? What hp are you now and what's your goal?
As they say grass is always greener on the other side and you're very lucky to have exceptional custom tuners. I've heard great things about United Motorsports (and it would be my No.1 choice for a custom tune).

The days of BT are long gone for me, been there and although it was a blast it wasn't without much effort. This time my sweet spot will be stage 1 or 2 and awd.

 

[alper]

I did go with one of the big tuners: MRC (the local branch).

I think the big tuners do not advertise stage 2 or stage 3 for GPF cars, but if you contact them they will probably do it. For example, if you look at MRC's Facebook page, you'll see that they also tune GPF cars.

I'm not sure the missing port injection affects stage 3 performance, I'm more worried about carbon build-up on the valves. From what I know port injection is used mainly at low RPMs and direct injection at high RPMs, so the impact should not be big if at all. I would also be interested to learn more about this subject.

The limit to 460 HP could be because we used the TT V3 turbo (less powerful but quicker spool compared to TT V4 or V5) or because I said from the beginning that I prefer a rather conservative mapping to minimize risks.

Mods on the car are:
- Racingline R600 full intake;
- Racingline oil management system;
- Wagner intercooler;
- TT V3 turbo + uprated sensors;
- Milltek 76mm full exhaust (with racing cat and resonated);
- LOBA HPFP;
- NGK R7438-9 spark plugs;
- Audi RS3 8V coils;
- StopTech BBK 355x32mm slotted;
- Neuspeed RSe10 lightweight rims (I downgraded from 19" to 18" for better road comfort);

Thanks for the detailed reply. In theory the MPI is used for the low load operation but apparently for 500hp+ setups it is adapted so as to provide the extra fuel required, hence why US owners install such kits, either aftermarket or ROW OEM. With the exception of the secondary injection, your car is running peripherals for 550hp I'd say rather than just for 460 Is it a manual or you forgot to add the DSG tune too? You must need that with all that extra torque.

The Milltek option with GPF delete is the only realistic option for now I think, the Supersprint prices are a joke. I do wonder whether this will cause MOT issues when time comes for inspection though, obviously this is different for each country.

Unfortunately there are no MRC dealers close to Sweden as far as I can see so I'd still need to plan a long trip to Germany to one of the big names there so it's either that or wait till a reputable tuner develops a stage 2 map near me. An APR dealer had told me it was in their plans but nothing has come out almost a year later. Same for REVO. I guess I'll keep on pestering them about when they're planning to release their GPF maps...

 

[r@d00]

@alper Thanks for the explanation. Car is DSG and is ECU + TCU tuned.https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?members/alper.104641/

 

[martin j.]

@Mikertroid Neuspeed RSe10 18x8

Nice picture.

 

[Mikertroid]

@Mikertroid Neuspeed RSe10 18x8

Nice...!

 

[J Peterman]

Going MPI will be more oem-look in my opinion. Couldn't you fit bigger injectors, or was it just for the price? What hp are you now and what's your goal?
As they say grass is always greener on the other side and you're very lucky to have exceptional custom tuners. I've heard great things about United Motorsports (and it would be my No.1 choice for a custom tune).

The days of BT are long gone for me, been there and although it was a blast it wasn't without much effort. This time my sweet spot will be stage 1 or 2 and awd.

Currently stock power on the 1.8T AWD, which is around 179hp. Plan with MPI/upgraded LPFP/injectors and the hybrid IS20 (similar time your LM440 IS20 in Europe) is around 360-380hp, so around Stage 1/2 Golf R/Cupra 300 ST/R. I just want a fun and reliable daily driver. Custom tuning through either UM or EcuTek with Flexfuel is the plan (best available pump gas in California is 95RON). The 2.0 E888 Gen3 engines have better fueling from the factory (injectors and HPFP), a 1.8T with DI can’t run an IS38 without running out of fuel, so to support hybrid turbos MPI is the best way to go on the 1.8T platform.

 

[KernelOkey]

I know revo will keep the gpf in stage 2 + 3, and that is very tempting so you dont need to worry about MOT in a few years

 

[alper]

I know revo will keep the gpf in stage 2 + 3, and that is very tempting so you dont need to worry about MOT in a few years

How is that possible? I mean apart from the fact they don't offer any stage 2/3 map officially on their website, the only downpipe I've seen people use so far is the Milltek one which uses a HJS or race catalyst and deletes the twin GPF's. With what downpipe does REVO keep the GPF's then? They don't offer one of their own yet.

Do you have any link to a Stage 2 GPF REVO car?

 

[KernelOkey]

How is that possible? I mean apart from the fact they don't offer any stage 2/3 map officially on their website, the only downpipe I've seen people use so far is the Milltek one which uses a HJS or race catalyst and deletes the twin GPF's. With what downpipe does REVO keep the GPF's then? They don't offer one of their own yet.

Do you have any link to a Stage 2 GPF REVO car?

I have contacts, and they had a Q&A a few weeks ago on their fanpage and I asked, they where testning different piping now. HGP have GPF on their stage 3 since many month back and running 480hp

 

[alper]

I have contacts, and they had a Q&A a few weeks ago on their fanpage and I asked, they where testning different piping now. HGP have GPF on their stage 3 since many month back and running 480hp

Sorry, this still is unclear to me: You are saying that they have been testing an un-released REVO downpipe that maintains the GPFs, correct? If so, this hasn't come out yet so I imagine I can't contact REVO Sweden tomorrow and ask for it. Do you know from your contacts if/when it's coming out?

In fact I have contacted REVO Sweden recently, we'll see if they offer a stage 2 solution together with their own downpipe. Otherwise it's back to Milltek and no GPFs.

As of the HGP Golf R sure, they are using their own GPF downpipe which is - as everything else of them - stupidly expensive (4800eur for a stage 2 ) so it's not of much relevance.

 

[KernelOkey]

Sorry, this still is unclear to me: You are saying that they have been testing an un-released REVO downpipe that maintains the GPFs, correct? If so, this hasn't come out yet so I imagine I can't contact REVO Sweden tomorrow and ask for it. Do you know from your contacts if/when it's coming out?

In fact I have contacted REVO Sweden recently, we'll see if they offer a stage 2 solution together with their own downpipe. Otherwise it's back to Milltek and no GPFs.

As of the HGP Golf R sure, they are using their own GPF downpipe which is - as everything else of them - stupidly expensive (4800eur for a stage 2 ) so it's not of much relevance.

No, Martin will prob just say what I just did. Its in the works and is a priority for Revo to release but its still in development. Well, 4800 is their stage 1 I'll pm you

 

[Necc]

This isn´t clear unless they develop a high flow cat and gpf to pass MOT or just a downpipe for "track use".
Stage 2 without exhaust flow is not possible.
Maybe a larger turbo for stage 3 with OEM exhaust is possible but power figures will be low (but passing MOT)

 

[alper]

This isn´t clear unless they develop a high flow cat and gpf to pass MOT or just a downpipe for "track use".
Stage 2 without exhaust flow is not possible.
Maybe a larger turbo for stage 3 with OEM exhaust is possible but power figures will be low (but passing MOT)

From what I understood they are working on a solution that maintains the GPF's. This has already been done by HGP who offer such a GPF retaining downpipe, no issues there.

Also, the GPFs seem to be far less restricting on performance than everyone thought before. Just see what times are achieved by stage 1 GPF cars, practically identical to stage 1 non GPFs. REVO reported that during their testing, GPF cars made more power with the same boost as before to the point they had to limit them to keep within safe levels. In the end, the removal of GPFs may be only done as a matter of keeping the cost down, not out of flow needs, this is still depending on replacing the main cat with a free flow one like HJS.

 

[Necc]

It´d be perfect to pass MOT without a done-undone process every time you need to... let´s wait and see.
Otherwise, this downpipe will be expensive for sure.

 

[alper]

It´d be perfect to pass MOT without a done-undone process every time you need to... let´s wait and see.
Otherwise, this downpipe will be expensive for sure.

Absolutely. If the GPF's are needed to pass MOT it's either an affordable GPF-retaining downpipe for me (it one becomes available) or sticking with stage 1. I can definitely not afford removing and putting back dp's every year, my time is way more valuable than being spent on that!