are all front wishbones the same for MK4?

qwert

Active Member
Jan 13, 2008
171
2
Just hit the kerb, passenger side wheel about 5mph due slush. Steering feels very weird now. Passenger side front wishbone definitly bent. A quick look on ebay shows a wishbone for cheap ish. Booked into garage tomorrow. Are there any other nasty suprises I should be prepared for? What else could be damaged? Steering rack? Drive shaft? I trust you'll all be as helpful as ever! Thanks and merry christmas!


Oh and are all front wishbones the same for MK4? I have a FR TDI...
 

BlackLeon

Active Member
Nov 1, 2009
65
0
Brighton
at 5mph i doubt BUT you may have cracked the alloy. . sometimes a pot hole is enough if very unlucky. I hit a curb a while back in my old car, just bent the wishbone luckily.
 

vroomtshh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2005
4,222
3
Dreghorn, Scotland
Ah if so that cost about 3 times as much as that then, my local garage version of wheel alignment cost £30 but 4 wheel alighnment I recently had done after coilovers and new wishbone bushes cost me nearer the hundered mark.

Why would you pay for 4 wheel alignment on a car that has no adjustability at the rear?
 

dave_ph

:)
Jul 12, 2006
411
0
Somerset
www.vagowners.co.uk
some info from FCM motorsport on vagowners:

Frequently Asked Questions > 4-Wheel Alignment

Why 4 wheel alignment is necessary
Many companies offer 'tracking checks', which to the unsuspecting or uninformed motorist may seem to be good value. In many cases however, attention is only paid to the front wheels. Additionally, very few establishments have the correct equipment required for fine measurement. Because of the high investment required for 'state of the art' alignment systems, most garages use very basic equipment which is wholly unsuitable at best, and inaccurate at worst. Only true 4 wheel alignment checks the important dimensions and accurately pinpoints the adjustments which should be made, depending upon specific vehicle design.

Thrust Axis...
The four wheel thrust line of a vehicle (or thrust axis as it is also known) is the direction/position that the vehicle is in when being driven on the road. The rear wheels directly follow the front wheels. Ideally the thrust line of the vehicle should be exactly the same as the centre line of the vehicle. The centre line is the imaginary line between the centre of the front axle and the centre of the rear axle.

Thrust line deviation occurs when the thrust line and the centre line of the vehicle are at different angles. A positive deviation angle will cause the rear wheels to push the rear of the vehicle to the near-side and a negative angle the rear of the vehicle to the off-side. In very bad circumstances the deviation manifests itself as the vehicle appearing to be twisted sideways, 'crabbing', when driving on the road.


Thrust line deviation can cause tyre wear and handling difficulties. The Caster and SAl angles (Steering Axis Inclination ) on the front wheels are designed to make the front wheels self-centre about the true centre line of the vehicle. If there is a thrust line deviation the driver will feel the vehicle trying to pull to one side while attempting to keep it running in a straight ahead direction.

To cure any deviation you need to be able to adjust the rear suspension settings (especially the toe and camber angles) in the same way as you can the front. Before any adjustments can be made it is therefore necessary to check and note the existing settings of all of the road wheels not just the front, and it is for this reason that it is necessary to check the alignment using a four wheel alignment system.


Before having your vehicle aligned you should ask the following questions:
Does the equipment allow for any road wheel run-out?
It is common for road wheels to have up to a 3mm 'buckle' in the wheel. Therefore if the equipment is not able to compensate for such run-out the reading obtained can have up to 6mm of inaccuracy in-built and in certain instances far more (many high performance vehicles have a total tolerance of no more than I .5mm).

Does the equipment identify each wheel in relation to the centre line of the vehicle or does it just give the total toe in or toe out?
If it does not address each wheel, you could have the situation where a 'correct" reading is obtained but the wheels are actually pointing any where other than where they should be e.g. one wheel having excessive toe-in and the other excessive toe-out (eyesight alone not being sufficient for the accuracy of measurement required).

Do you provide a printed report detailing what was found before and after adjustment?
If you are not provided with this, how can you be sure of the cause of your problems, and whether or not they they have been recognised and fixed? Furthermore you will have no permanent record of what settings are on your vehicle.

Does your equipment check all the road wheels?
If the equipment does not- you are wasting your time and your money.
 

vroomtshh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2005
4,222
3
Dreghorn, Scotland
Do you understand what you've posted. Not just copying and paste.

Everything above is correct, but I repeat what I said the first time, why would you pay for a proper 4 wheel alignment on a car that has no adjustability at the rear? All they can do is tell you something is out. They have no way to rectify this. Unless something is out due to bent parts. Then they can fit new parts and re-check

In fact with the ibiza, you have no adjustability at the front either, apart from toe, so you're wasting money.

Having the tracking checked (toe) but taking account the front wheels position relative to the rear wheels, is common at almost any tyre shop these days.
 

vroomtshh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2005
4,222
3
Dreghorn, Scotland
To cure any deviation you need to be able to adjust the rear suspension settings (especially the toe and camber angles) in the same way as you can the front. Before any adjustments can be made it is therefore necessary to check and note the existing settings of all of the road wheels not just the front, and it is for this reason that it is necessary to check the alignment using a four wheel alignment system.

Only reinforcing what I am asking
 

vroomtshh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2005
4,222
3
Dreghorn, Scotland
I didn't actually say you were wrong in the first place, so you can get off your high horse and stop being so blunt. I was just posting some info i found about it.

I'm not on my high horse. I know a fair bit about suspension. And I cant understand why anyone would want to pay for 4 wheel alignment on a mark 4 Ibiza. I asked Aimez as I know she has a MK4 and I wondered what would make her pay for something that just isnt possible on her car.

As for being blunt, I call a spade a spade, if you dont like it, dont read my posts.

The info you found is spot on. And I agree a 4 wheel alignment check (note the word check) is a great thing. Lets you know all parts of the chassis are straight etc.
But nothing more than a check can be done on MK4s without modifying parts. And its way overkill for what most people need.

For the OP, he certainly doesn;t 'Need' a 4 wheel alignment. Its a worthwhile check but since he didnt hit the rear wheel (and hasnt in the past - maybe) then he wouldnt need the check doing after replacing the wishbone.

What he would 'need' is a front wheel alignment done, which is done relative to the rears at any garage I've been in.

Thats not to say he wouldn't 'want' a 4 wheel alignment check done, for piece of mind.

A lot of people, after replacing the wishbone, would prefer to spend the £30ish they need rather than £100
 

qwert

Active Member
Jan 13, 2008
171
2
Thats for all that. So does anyone know if the wishbones are the same throughout the MK4 range? And if you think the impact would have bent the steering rack or driveshaft....cheers
 

Neo

Fool member
Mar 24, 2009
881
1
Thats for all that. So does anyone know if the wishbones are the same throughout the MK4 range? And if you think the impact would have bent the steering rack or driveshaft....cheers

Lol, that is what you originally asked after all! :rolleyes:
I believe they are the same throughout, it`s only the Cupra that`s different.

If it had bent the driveshaft you would probably now have a big vibration, but you may have knocked your wheel balance out - this would also cause vibration (although not as bad).

Steering rack could have been affected, but more than likely it`s the wishbone/TCA that`s bent as you said, or possibly the subframe.

At the least I would say change the TCA (if you know it`s bent), inspect/balance the wheel and adjust tracking (which is the only geometry that`s adjustable).
 
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Fl@pper

Back older greyer and less oilier but always hope
Jun 19, 2001
12,370
26
Gloucester
arms are the same except the Cupra+Cupra Tdi

same thing goes with the inner mounting bracket as the arm is sort of in 2 pieces (see pic)

inner bush from the Cupra is fittable as a decent mod (solid bush) to replace the crappy spindly standard ones and reccomended 'when' they fail mot

as for damage, replace the obvious damaged parts of course but make sure you get it somewhere to test/check the front end alignment at least that way any other damage further back may be diagnosed

If you tell em honestly what happened any decent place will advise you well enough if it needs more work i would think

although it was on tickover then 5mph ;) for a bent arm is a little under estimate but don't panic :) ya not the first or be the last but unless you had any rear wheel contact at all then a decent front end check should be enough

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qwert

Active Member
Jan 13, 2008
171
2
Well possibly 6mph:whistle: , thanks for info. just jacked it up, wishbone defo bent, wheel spins by hand with a bit of force so defo something wrong there as well. Driveshaft "looks" ok, all front suspension parts on ebay at mo which is good, but also a bad omen me thinks! Don't wanna drive it so will try to get a tow tomorrow.
 

qwert

Active Member
Jan 13, 2008
171
2
Just back from garage...fingers crossed all thats needed is new wishbone and mounty thing. (technical term). 80quid for the part and 50quid fitting which seems very reasonable indeed. I drove it to the garage,very very slowly steering was all over the place but driveshaft and steering rack seems ok so hopefully Ive got away with just a wishbone. That'll teach me for power sliding backwards out my driveway.
 

RUM4MO

Active Member
Jun 4, 2008
7,784
983
South Scotland
On a lot of modern cars "four wheel alignment" is necessary after removing crossmembers etc. These little cars are all based on the Skoda Fabia and maybe as such have not been designed with easy suspension parts replacement - if you are worried about having "good tracking" - ie true tracking then get a four wheel alignment. Lots of small or lazy garages do not mention four wheel alignment as they have not got the kit to carry out that task. Especially in the case of a car that gets driven in and the customer says that they have hit a kerb, the garage should carry out a full alignment inspection - and that, I'm afraid, means "four wheel alignment". VAG do provide dealers with excentric dowels to allow correct repositioning of the cross member, but it seems that this is not good enough as they usually end up charging for alignment. Yes I know that most normal standard VAG cars have one fixed end and one adjustable end, in the case of A4,A6 B5 Passat and Superb, the front is fixed - in the case of the B5 Passat 4Motion, it is lucky enough to get some old S4 bits - so they can be adjusted. In the case of the Fabia,Polo 9N and Ibiza 6L, the rear is fixed - but the front needs to be centered on the centre of the rear axle line - or the car will crab. That means that to do this repair job correctly means getting a four wheel alignment.

Yes its expensive, yes I've paid to get this done to my B5 Passat when the front suspension was off to replace the wheel bearings, yes I've paid to get this done on my wife's 9N Polo when its ARB fell apart, yes I've paided to get this done when a VAG indie fitted Cupra TCA bushes to the 9N Polo and finally, yes it seemed to be out again one year later when it trashed the front tyres inner tread -(that time it seems that the VAG indie gave it a bit much camber - thanks!). But now it seems okay!
 

vroomtshh

Full Member
Sep 11, 2005
4,222
3
Dreghorn, Scotland
That means that to do this repair job correctly means getting a four wheel alignment.

No it doesn't. It means getting a two wheel alignment done, taking into account the position of the rears.

How can you align something that doesn't move? They don't align the rear, or adjust the rear, or check the position of the rear (in fact, i seriously doubt any VAG garages have the equipment for it)

What they do is track the front wheels, taking the rear wheel position into account. The exact same as almost all tyre fitters etc in the last 10 years.

This is NOT a 4 wheel alignment