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Atmos Dump Valve?????

Discussion in 'Ibiza Mk3 (2000-2002)' started by steve0, Apr 19, 2006.

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  1. Beaker™

    Beaker™ Slightly Unhinged........

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    What the hell?!
     
  2. Forbez

    Forbez Huge Member!

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    That looks like an atmos, and as its not near the MAF sensor, i wonder if it would give the error codes, associated with Atmos DV's??

    Im sure someone will say yes.
     
  3. Martyn

    Martyn SCN Admin

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    The fact that the car will be losing metered air means it's no different to driving around with gert 'one way' hole in one of your pipes :)
     
  4. Jamie R

    Jamie R Standard is the way!!

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    So really it cant be done without causing endless problems
     
  5. Martyn

    Martyn SCN Admin

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    Correct :)

    You wouldnt wanna ruin an 'R' with an Atmos DV anyway ;)
     
  6. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    He could have hybrid DV mounted . You can buy dedicated model for 1.8T engines
     
  7. Martyn

    Martyn SCN Admin

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    Which will still wreck your motor. But hey...what do I know lol :)
     
  8. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    I don't have one in my car but willing to buy , so can't give you opinion based on my experience yet.
    But know people running these DVs , no VAG errors or any other issues
     
  9. Ruddmeister

    Ruddmeister Everything in Moderation

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    that means nothing.....everybody agrees they will work on a 1.8T it's just the damage they do over time.

    RobDon tried for ages to makes atmos DV's work, he must have tried 10 types, they all eventually threw up fault codes in the ECU (some took days some took months ).

    Don't believe me? then get a cup of tea and read the Science bit from a man who is qualified.....10+ years calibrating ECU's for a living on Aston's etc counts as 'qualified' to me.

    (I would be happy to see a constructive reply / argument to the following...................)

    ____________________________________________________

    Post from Max-Torque


    "No rhime or reason"

    But:

    (and concentrate, here comes the science bit!)

    A modern engine management system, ie the Bosch Me unit fitted to 1.8T's has "adaptive" learning on the fuel, ignition and airflow side.

    Because Me is a Torque based structure it's calculation of engine torque verses driver demand is critical to the driveability of the car and it's performance / durability.

    When you fit a "leak" in the intake system (open circuit valve) the original calibration of the MAF sensor to manifold and cylinder filling modeling will not corespond. However due to the 20% allowance in the long term adaptive values the ECU will relearn you engine and "leak"

    At idle the inlet model calculated airflow will exceed the MAF meters measured output, and depending on the state of your particular components - ie MAF ageing / contamination, throttle plate leakage, Fuel tank purge vapour concentration this may, or may not push the adaptive to it's 20% limit. If it hits the limit the ME unit will run in FMEM mode (Failure mode and effects management) causing reduced system efficiency. The Me unit will use the switching signal from the lambda sensor to return fuelling to lambda 1, storing the correction as a map agaisnt airflow. and add this correction to the fueling calc when operating at non closed loop conditions, ie WOT, fuel injector reenstatment (after overrun shut off, traction control intervention etc.) Now depending on how you drive and how sensative you are this may or may not be felt by the driver during certain manovevers. The throttle plate position will also learn the new airflow to maintain control of idle speed, but you may notice poor engine load rejection, ie turn on the aircon and the engine speed varries etc. or engine speed flares on starts or when operating PAS when parking.

    However in all cases this will result in "incorrect" fueling. Now by "incorrect" i mean, not as the manufacturer intended. A post MAF leak will cause rich operation initially, but the adaptives will pull fuel out and become negative. This tends to cause a rich to lean spike on tip outs and other throttle transient. Now it is extremely diffucult for an untrained observer to spot these effects as they occur mainly on throttle transients, when the average drive may not notice. Therefore you could say "why do i care?". Well, any AFR excursion from the intended fuelling set by the manufacturer will result in non-standard engine operation. because of the adaptives this is unlikely to cause immediate engine problems, but over the course of time will change things like catalyst ageing, exhaust and turbo charger valve durability etc. Manufactures spend millions accruing miles on development fleets so hopefully the customers don't get landed with big bills as time goes on, and with most modern cars life'd at 150k miles (min design life) this is a big task.
    It is unlikely that this will result in any performance loss, as at WOT the system is open loop, but you may see the result of an open circuit valve oas over fueling on gear changes etc. (a tell tail puff of black smoke is what you can see, a 1200 degC Catalyst is what you can't see, as excess fuel when injection reenstates and excess air from overrun shut off period combine in cat)

    Now as you can see this is a seriously complicated subject and i haven't even mentioned the dreaded EOBD or OBDII words yet. Typically Bosch Me units have approximately 9000 calibratable parameters (constants, maps etc) and an engine calibration program will take a team of 8 calibration engineers 18 months to do the basic mapping and OBD validation. These days it's no problem to do the basic fuel and spark mapping, maybe 4 weeks on a midlimit engine on a dyno, but the diagnostics and emmisions devs takes years.

    Moral or the story, before you start playing with something you don't understand, find someone who does!(And not just thinks they do!)

    (for anyone thinking, "hey what makes me such an "expert" on this subject?" then i'd better mention the last 10 years i've spent as a senior calibration engineer at Cosworth and Prodrive!)

    (sorry , another monster post!)
     
    #29 Ruddmeister, Apr 21, 2006
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2006
  10. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    Why do you think I don't believe you ?
     
  11. Ruddmeister

    Ruddmeister Everything in Moderation

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    Answer


    Or did I not undertsand you correctly??
     
  12. Jamie R

    Jamie R Standard is the way!!

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    Im not after one, just wanted to know if they worked.

    Personally i think they sound a bit gay
     
  13. CupraTgirl

    CupraTgirl Model Behaviour

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    If you get a Forge007P, Forge TIP and an open filter then it sounds like it has Atmospheric Dump Valve, if you then get it remapped its REALLY loud, mine isnt remapped yet but if you heard it you would think it had one on as well
     
  14. Ruddmeister

    Ruddmeister Everything in Moderation

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    Yes they do work, nobody disputes this..............but in time they will cause you to go slower (running fault codes).......and possibly damage your engine
     
  15. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    The valve I'm talking about is one month on the market so it may be too early
    for final judgement .
    I'm willing to buy one but I need to gather as much information as possible ,
    so thank you for the previous post , interesting !
    Don't want to throw 80 punds for nothing
     
  16. WatchHill

    WatchHill Twonk

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    Which of course might answer why the chap in the first post wasn't getting performance despite revo/zorst etc.
     
  17. Forbez

    Forbez Huge Member!

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    Whats this new DV, Radek?
     
  18. Ruddmeister

    Ruddmeister Everything in Moderation

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    OK fair enough but think about it logically

    If the DV vents to the atmosphere (even in part) then air is lost from the system, air that the ECU believe's is in the system....

    As the man said
    "...A post MAF leak will cause rich operation initially, but the adaptives will pull fuel out and become negative. This tends to cause a rich to lean spike.."

    Cars running Rich may just knacker your catalyst etc..... cars running lean is plain scary.

    "...Well, any...excursion from the intended fuelling set by the manufacturer will result in non-standard engine operation. because of the adaptives this is unlikely to cause immediate engine problems, but over the course of time will change things like catalyst ageing, exhaust and turbo charger valve durability etc..."

    Sounds more expensive than replacing just an £80 DV to me :shrug:
     
  19. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    How about forge007P + remap and stock air filter ? Any sound ?
     
  20. Radek

    Radek Full Member

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    It's local product , here in Poland .
    If I have some more details will post it
     

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