Coilover obession - Why do you really want coilovers???

[DOLBY]

imo suspension is one of the most important mods you can do, its the thing that your passengers will notice before the exhaust, remap etc....you will be doing many miles in your car so why buy a cheap brand coilover that will knock your fillings out and give you more back problems at 20 than a 50 year old?....thats why i would save the extra cash and get decent coilovers...my coilovers are 10 times more comfy than standard, and with a few hours modification will be track ready....if i happen to sell it in the future i will just raise it 25mm, adjust the damping to suit and no one will know the difference..

its a good argument and me personally was doing research on the koni/fsd set up and was all for it until it was mentioned the ride can feel 'numb' at speed and maximum drop is 15mm....i didnt and i still dont want a ride thats too comfy, just bearable...i want a car that is precise and accurate..

 

[truss]

this is an interesting read. ive considered coilovers for my car, purely for the price and the ability to get a low stance as and when, but ive never really thought about the setting up. Its obviously more comples than i thought.
my ibiza is an everyday driving car. what type of suspension upgrade should i be looking at to get the best from it? i may have a go at a track day, but for me, normal crap british roads are an everyday occurance.

 

[warren_cox]

this is an interesting read. ive considered coilovers for my car, purely for the price and the ability to get a low stance as and when, but ive never really thought about the setting up. Its obviously more comples than i thought.
my ibiza is an everyday driving car. what type of suspension upgrade should i be looking at to get the best from it? i may have a go at a track day, but for me, normal crap british roads are an everyday occurance.

Depending on your Ibiza model number anything like these: link will provide far superior handling to your OE set up whilst offering the option of lowering the centre of gravity by a sensible amount. When you are running a car with reasonable BHP, and you're driving abilities are 'normal' (eg. you are not an undiscovered Senna), you would find it hard to exceed the limits of this kind of equipment, even on the track. People who think they can 'could' be deluding themselves or are just bad drivers. Most cars on this site aren't stripped track day racers, they are just road cars driven by regular Joes, and when 90% of annual mileage is performed on Blighty's finest tarmac these kind of kits are most things to most folk.

I went in an LCR with coilovers a couple of years back that had been very well set up (Bilstein PSS-9's with Neuspeed ARB's front and back, New wheel / tyres, dogbone mounts / strut brace), and despite being on the harsh unforgiving concrete roads of a Newport industrial estate the ride was very good. However serious money and time had been spent getting this car right, and Jock the engineer who did the work appeared very competent - (not my car I hasten to add, Ruddmeisters from this site - before people think I'm blowing hot air up my own @r$e). If you spend good money you will achieve good results, and I use this word subjectively 'better' performance from good coilovers (but there is a time, a planning and an investment factor. Given the complexity of setting this kit up properly, any average bod who thinks he can be winding it up down and every which way, and is getting true benefit is misguided.

 

[flappy]

Good to see Tim's post. When lowering the car the roll centre and centre of gravity are extremely important. There are many books out there on suspension geometry and make for a really interesting read. If you do a quick search for roll centre or for vehilce geometry on google books you will find some vey usefull publications.


As for the correct setup of coilovers-

Taken from the Öhlins manual.
"All vehicles are designed with a suspension
geometry that includes wheel movemnets and
angles. The changing of components can affect
this and it is therefore essential that both the rear
and the front ends match each other"

"Everything must harmonize
Incorrect spring action can affect the road holding
abilities in a negative way. This in turn can give a
tendency for oversteering or understeering, which
could seriously affect the road holding characteristics
of the vehicle. It´s important that the
springs are checked for correct lenght and
stiffness when Öhlins shock absorbers are
mounted."


(http://www.ohlins.com/Portals/0/documents/manuals/07255-01.pdf)

 

[truss]

coxw thank you for the advice. i think ill look into spring and damper kits as i don't want the hassle of coilovers now. i just want a better grippier drive and i think its the way to go! like you say, im not ayrton senna in disguise!

 

[ADAM_84]

Just read through all the posts and must say that a few things have gone way over my head lol, but from what i have understood is that a good spring and damper setup is more then likely going to be better then a cheaper coilover kit and after reading about all the setting up of coilovers its opened my eyes for sure that its not just a case of plonking them on, getting 4 wheel laser alignment and bobs your uncle, its so far from it and i personally think that people should be made to read what has been written on this thread as i'm sure it'd sort out the people who really need them for their required achievments from the people who aren't sure which setup to go for to the people that think coilovers are the best because of the price tag.
I wonder how many people who have coliovers are really getting the full potential from them?

Think i'll be going for a spring and damper combo as after reading this, coilovers are such an over kill for me and very expensive when they'll only ever be adjusted once.

Only problem now is what spring and damper options are the best for me, i know what i want but not sure how to get there.

I think a 30mm drop would be spot on as i'd still like to make it over speed bumps without losing the bottom of the car, a slighly harsher ride but if i hit a pot hole i don't want serious damage done to me or the car lol and a suspension kit that doesn't require maintaining.

 

[Willie]

Adam, don't let this put you off of getting coilovers. Coilovers can be the only option sometimes.
Let this thread open your eyes to the true potential of coilovers beyond the slamming the car to the weeds for looks.
Correctly set up a car on coilovers wil run circles round a spring/damper set up car

 

[J0N]

Very interesting and informed reading. Anyone thinking of modifying their suspension needs to have a look.

 

[Tfsi_Mike]

Fitted my KW v3's Not too bad ride even on the shocking roads round me. No roll anymore awesome on bends and roundabouts. Had neuspeed arbs too. Amazing!

 

[DOLBY]

V3s are a bitch to set up tho, ive tried tons of different combos, but going to get someone to set it up for fast road use only and then i can LEAVE IT alone lol

 

[abhardwaj1990]

This is a very good read, and has had me thinking...

At the moment my car suspension system is totally standard, recently I had my back wheels spaced 20mm (they are 205/40/r17), now whenever I go round a bend at speed or over speed humps when I've got someone in the back there's a scraping noise from the wheels touching the arches, my ride is also quite bouncy and the car looks slightly lopsided when parked :S....

I was going to just get the spring swapped for shorter ones but that would make it worse?
Then someone said get coilovers, £180 on eBay, which is perfect for me as its fairly cheap, and that's all I can afford at the moment....what would you recommend?

I don't really want to slam the car as low as it can go, I just want a nice ride height, probably about a 40/60mm drop...

Thanks

 

[Willie]

Get shocks and springs that will lower to the level you want, coilovers with piss you off after a while.
Sounds like you have a broken spring anyway

 

[abhardwaj1990]

would I have to get the original shocks changed for new ones? or should I just get new springs?

Would that not make the scraping worse? it happens whenever there's a load in the back...

Is this the kind of thing I would need?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300313924555&fromMakeTrack=true
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=370192356544

thanks

 

[ChromePete]

Hey,

this thread is the most sense I think I've ever read on the net and encouraged me to buy a set of lowering springs and OE gas shocks, new top mounts and bearings from GSF. Total came to 255 squids or thereabouts and the difference is unreal.

I drive a '99 Golf 1.8t and the fresh shocks have made the world of difference and the springs, while only giving 25mm lower on the back and 28ishmm on the front (measured arch height from the floor) have improved the looks. veedub is meant to be subtle right?

Anyway, thanks to this thread, I realised that it was pointless going the coilover route as I mainly want to keep the car comfy and able to go into carparks and on country roads, I'm not Mr. Hamilton and don't want the expense of having the car set up, weighted and dropped properly (the golf has lots of problems when you go too low).

sorry, this post wasn't meant to be this long, but thanks again for the realistic and helpful advice!

If you want i can do pics and price breakdowns, but it might not be very helpful on a Seat forum??

 

[ChromePete]

oh, and 9 times out of 10 the scraping as you load the back (by driving or putting things in the boot) is from a coilspring having lost it's tip. Hope that helps!

 

[Fl@pper]

this thread is the most sense I think I've ever read on the net

If you want i can do pics and price breakdowns, but it might not be very helpful on a Seat forum??

feel free - might help another lost soul decide or at least mak an educated decision

 

[BigLad]

Only really the designers of the cars will specify the correct spring rate depend on the weight over each wheel at ever possible dynamic position of each wheel on the car in all environments,,,most cars are set up for comfort and road handling not track, just by stiffing them wont make the car perfect for the track and still retain some comfort. I have been to companies that do this as a full time job so I agree, coilovers unless set up track side by someone qualified are a bit much esp if you still need to use the car for work up those b raods. I am personnally going for the springs and dampers because even though it may not handle as well on a track day I will retain some of the comfort and also do not need to worry about anything failing on the coilovers but to be honest, no matter how much you spend on better springs and shocks, none of the after market companies will spend as much time and money getting the perfect ride for every single eventuality as the oem...but on the same 'blow steam up the oems ass', I have seen some rather short cutted trials at specifying parts, and spring rates are notoriously hard to get perfect from a mathematical model! I think that this is a thread that could go on forever!

 

[warren_cox]

As more people post onto the thread, it is interesting to read that you can set a car up with new OE kit from GSF or ECP and the difference is still a league away from worn components.

It got to the point where people were saying I need coilovers and not understanding why, what or the complexity / future commitments they were buying themselves into. To be deemed a 'knowledgeable' and 'committed' modder/forum member you have to join up to every forum on the internet and start spouting you want decked coilies, and which cheap sh1tters are the best?!?!?!

What's funnier is that in most cases a product which is marketed for improving real world performance is being taken by the user, dialled down to ridiculous levels of ride height, but because what they have taken off the car before putting coilies on was often worse they believe there is positive improvement. Actually in most cases they would be outhandled by equivalent prices spring / dampers set up properly!

The fact this thread has made a few people just ask the question 'why' means it has done it's job for me. There will always be the lemmings that feel the need to throw themselves off the mountain top, but then they wouldn't read threads like this as it's not want they want to hear as the answer. It won't tell them what the best cheapest coilies are!!

It is apparent how much of a science there is to setting a car up properly on coilovers with all the adjustability on offer. And how many REAL trained experts are there that can invest the time, road testing and R&D to get a each model of car 100% for all scenarios. Coilovers are adjustable as every track has different tendencies, and cars may have to carry different weights (driver or enforced penalty weights). Road cars are just shopping trolleys for getting to work. The average road user doesn't drive their car within 50% of the average BTCC driver, and you don't realise this until you go on a flying lap with them on a track. People tend to think fast is fast and thats it. When you cannot push your car that hard (which you can't on public roads), it leaves a very big question mark over coilies for anything other than the regular track enthusiast with a healthy wallet.

 

[Fl@pper]

i reckon the first company that offers an oem soft ride on ridiculously low ride height will be on a winner

mind you that's what airbags do no ? hehehe

 

[warren_cox]

i reckon the first company that offers an oem soft ride on ridiculously low ride height will be on a winner

mind you that's what airbags do no ? hehehe

@ airbags!

Our Audi is way too bouncy OEM, not hard but it's the sort of car you don't want to be needing a full bladder in at speed. If I keep it past 3 years I'll be on a sports spring damper combo. Will be trying magnetic ride if we get a new one to see if its 'all that'.