Cupra ST Mk3 2018 DSG6 vs Cupra ST Mk3 2019 DSG7... help needed please!

[SitdownandhaveaCupratea]

Hi guys,

This thread is following on from my previous topic which you gave great feedback and responses to, as I believe it deserves separate focus https://forums.seatcupra.net/index....zing-and-i-have-some-questions-please.447084/

Basically today I went to look at a fully loaded Cupra ST 300 DSG6 2018 and apart from the frankly awful Beats sound system I was very impressed, it was a beautiful car with a nice interior. I then went to the dealers desk to talk over the fine details and during the conversation just happened to notice that some more Cupras were coming in over the next couple of weeks, one of which was a 2019 model. I then asked what the difference was between the 2018 and 2019 was (I could see him groaning inwardly that I had got distracted from the 2018 car that he undoubtedly wanted to shift asap) and he said it was basically a newer DSG7 gearbox, a new colour grey paintwork and a copper coloured SEAT badge on the front.

Clearly the badge and paintwork don't matter but what really does and that I need to give serious thought to is the potential upgrade to a DSG7 gearbox. The problem is, if I want to reserve the 2018 model then I need to commit to it early next week.

So, my questions are...

1. What do you guys think the positive/negative impact of a DSG7 gearbox will be on performance and economy on an ST300?
2. Do you think that an ST300 2019 represents a better buy than an ST300 2018 purely in terms of residuals (ie: anything significant)?
3. Anyone know of any other differences I may have missed in terms of standard or non-standard kit between the older ST300 2018 and the new ST300 2019 model?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give!

 

[Damo H]

Odd that I was just looking at the Golf R Estate performance and mpg vs the Cupra ST 300 Carbon Ed. It was because evo magazine said the torque on the Carbon ST was 20 Nm down on the R. That is not the case, however it did make me look at the mpg.

Now I know the Golf R has 10 more hp and is a different shape, but look at the mpg comparisons of the 7 speed 310 R and the 6 speed ST carbon:

Golf R Estate 310 7 speed:
Power: 310PS
Torque: 380Nm @ 2000rpm
Urban: 31.7mpg
Extra Urban: 45.6mpg
Combined: 39.2mpg

Cupra ST 300 Carbon Edition 6 speed:
Power: 300PS
Torque: 380 @ 1800-5500rpm
Urban: 31.0mpg
Extra Urban: 46.3mpg
Combined: 39.2mpg

As I do most of miles my miles on the motorway, it seems based on gearboxs the 6 speed is better. Or that the golf is significantly less aerodynamic!

 

[black_sheep]

In response to the differences, I would look at the 'who's ordered a cupra?' sticky thread at the the top of the page, and this one here:

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/my19-leon-cupra-details.446850/

From what has been discussed, the 1-6 ratios on the 7 speed box are closely matched, with the 7th gear being an overdrive. The DSG7 has been fitted to the Golf R since the Mk7 was face-lifted - I would assume that the ST300 has the same DSG7/engine map as the Golf R to ensure homologation could be achieved.

One of the positives for Swiss/German users will be the Gasoline Particulate Filters fitted to the engine for entry into some of the more restrictive low emission zones?

 

[Damo H]

Oh yeah forgot about that.

The new one will have the GPF, so that may explain the performance figure differences, the Carbon edition doesn’t have that.

 

[black_sheep]

Now I know the Golf R has 10 more hp and is a different shame, but look at the mpg comparisons of the 7 speed 310 R and the 6 speed ST carbon:

Golf R Estate has also been pegged back to 300 ps post WLTP.

 

[Oldbutswift]

In response to the differences, I would look at the 'who's ordered a cupra?' sticky thread at the the top of the page, and this one here:

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/my19-leon-cupra-details.446850/

From what has been discussed, the 1-6 ratios on the 7 speed box are closely matched, with the 7th gear being an overdrive. The DSG7 has been fitted to the Golf R since the Mk7 was face-lifted - I would assume that the ST300 has the same DSG7/engine map as the Golf R to ensure homologation could be achieved.

One of the positives for Swiss/German users will be the Gasoline Particulate Filters fitted to the engine for entry into some of the more restrictive low emission zones?

Interesting,but the fact that the top gear is an overdrive on the 7 speed doesn't really stack up with the mpg figures given in Damo's post .
In other words, you would expect the higher gearing to mean better extra urban figures.
Are the final drive ratios the same?
(I have to say that in my family there is an S3 and a TTS,both have the older 6 speed dsg and their top gears seem high enough for this country,but perhaps not on an unrestricted Autobahn,which I haven't tried!)

 

[Damo H]

Golf R Estate has also been pegged back to 300 ps post WLTP.

The VW Website is still quoting 310.

So either it hasn't, or those above figures I've quoted are before the more restrictive exhaust.

If that is the case then I can only assume the golf is less aerodynamic than the Leon to explain why the newer 7 speed gives a lower mpg than the Cupra.

 

[Damo H]

Interesting,but the fact that the top gear is an overdrive on the 7 speed doesn't really stack up with the mpg figures given in Damo's post .
In other words, you would expect the higher gearing to mean better extra urban figures.
Are the final drive ratios the same?
(I have to say that in my family there is an S3 and a TTS,both have the older 6 speed dsg and their top gears seem high enough for this country,but perhaps not on an unrestricted Autobahn,which I haven't tried!)

Until we 100% confirm it, remember I'm potentially comparing a none WLTP car (carbon edition ) with the WLTP car (R). Will just have to see when we get official figures.

 

[Oldbutswift]

Roughly,so I may be wrong,I have looked up some figures that suggest to me that a 6 gear Cupra 300 does 27 mph per 1000 revs in top whereas a 7 gear Golf R 310 does 32 mph/ per 1000 revs in top.
However all the lower ratios on the 6 speed are higher.
So the 7 speed has lower ratios which should help acceleration and has a higher top for lower revs cruising and economy...but more frequent gear changes of course.

So the 7 speed box is the more advanced design and theoretically better,but in the conjested and speed limited UK its advantage over the 6 speed could be marginal.

 

[black_sheep]

The Golf R might be quoting 310 ps, but the car cannot be ordered in any EU markets due to bottlenecks (aka WLTP)... the Golf R was the alternative to the ST Cupra that I've purchased and it has been well publicised in the motoring press that it has reverted to 300 ps.

https://www.evo.co.uk/volkswagen/golf/21458/volkswagen-golf-r-power-reduced-due-to-new-wltp-regs

 

[xyz]

Without the thread descending into a bun fight like your last one (not your fault, certainly not mine but responsibility of one other individual who took offence at me putting forward the R estate!) this review says the 300 ST doesn’t have the 7 speed box. https://www.evo.co.uk/seat/leon-cup...edition-review-better-than-a-vw-golf-r-estate


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Damo H]

Without the thread descending into a bun fight like your last one (not your fault, certainly not mine but responsibility of one other individual who took offence at me putting forward the R estate!) this review says the 300 ST doesn’t have the 7 speed box. https://www.evo.co.uk/seat/leon-cup...edition-review-better-than-a-vw-golf-r-estate


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That’s because it’s the Carbon Edition which is based on MY18 where as the new cars coming referenced by the original post will be a MY19.

 

[Oldbutswift]

Without the thread descending into a bun fight like your last one (not your fault, certainly not mine but responsibility of one other individual who took offence at me putting forward the R estate!) this review says the 300 ST doesn’t have the 7 speed box. https://www.evo.co.uk/seat/leon-cup...edition-review-better-than-a-vw-golf-r-estate


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's the Carbon Edition which is a run out 2018 model.
It will only be 2019 models that move on to the 7 speed.

EDIT sorry,missed that Damo beat me to it!

 

[SitdownandhaveaCupratea]

Odd that I was just looking at the Golf R Estate performance and mpg vs the Cupra ST 300 Carbon Ed. It was because evo magazine said the torque on the Carbon ST was 20 Nm down on the R. That is not the case, however it did make me look at the mpg.

Now I know the Golf R has 10 more hp and is a different shape, but look at the mpg comparisons of the 7 speed 310 R and the 6 speed ST carbon:

Golf R Estate 310 7 speed:
Power: 310PS
Torque: 380Nm @ 2000rpm
Urban: 31.7mpg
Extra Urban: 45.6mpg
Combined: 39.2mpg

Cupra ST 300 Carbon Edition 6 speed:
Power: 300PS
Torque: 380 @ 1800-5500rpm
Urban: 31.0mpg
Extra Urban: 46.3mpg
Combined: 39.2mpg

As I do most of miles my miles on the motorway, it seems based on gearboxs the 6 speed is better. Or that the golf is significantly less aerodynamic!

Yeah I guess in real terms the mpg differences will not be majorly significant because of one extra gear at the speeds 99.9% of peope will be travelling at.

In response to the differences, I would look at the 'who's ordered a cupra?' sticky thread at the the top of the page, and this one here:

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/my19-leon-cupra-details.446850/

From what has been discussed, the 1-6 ratios on the 7 speed box are closely matched, with the 7th gear being an overdrive. The DSG7 has been fitted to the Golf R since the Mk7 was face-lifted - I would assume that the ST300 has the same DSG7/engine map as the Golf R to ensure homologation could be achieved.

One of the positives for Swiss/German users will be the Gasoline Particulate Filters fitted to the engine for entry into some of the more restrictive low emission zones?

Thanks mate I looked at this as you suggested but there is not much in the way of information about the real differences (in so far as anyone can know at this point), it's more people complaining (rightfully) about the car being different to what they ordered.

In response to the differences, I would look at the 'who's ordered a cupra?' sticky thread at the the top of the page, and this one here:


https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/my19-leon-cupra-details.446850/

From what has been discussed, the 1-6 ratios on the 7 speed box are closely matched, with the 7th gear being an overdrive. The DSG7 has been fitted to the Golf R since the Mk7 was face-lifted - I would assume that the ST300 has the same DSG7/engine map as the Golf R to ensure homologation could be achieved.

One of the positives for Swiss/German users will be the Gasoline Particulate Filters fitted to the engine for entry into some of the more restrictive low emission zones?

Hmm interesting... I haven^t see any complants about the DSG7 on the Gold R, have you? In terms of any negative impact, I mean.

Interesting,but the fact that the top gear is an overdrive on the 7 speed doesn't really stack up with the mpg figures given in Damo's post .

In other words, you would expect the higher gearing to mean better extra urban figures.
Are the final drive ratios the same?
(I have to say that in my family there is an S3 and a TTS,both have the older 6 speed dsg and their top gears seem high enough for this country,but perhaps not on an unrestricted Autobahn,which I haven't tried!)

I would guess 6 speed is more than enough for roads in old blighty, even motorways are pretty slow.

Roughly,so I may be wrong,I have looked up some figures that suggest to me that a 6 gear Cupra 300 does 27 mph per 1000 revs in top whereas a 7 gear Golf R 310 does 32 mph/ per 1000 revs in top.
However all the lower ratios on the 6 speed are higher.
So the 7 speed has lower ratios which should help acceleration and has a higher top for lower revs cruising and economy...but more frequent gear changes of course.

So the 7 speed box is the more advanced design and theoretically better,but in the conjested and speed limited UK its advantage over the 6 speed could be marginal.

Interesting. Considering I will be doing a good mix of mountain twisties and cruising at 100-120km/h I guess a 6 speed DSG does the job.

I guess now it is just a case of how much the re-sale value will be affected buying a brand new 2018 model at the very point that the 2019 comes out.

And such a shame Seat Sound appears to be discontinued...

 

[Damo H]

I guess now it is just a case of how much the re-sale value will be affected buying a brand new 2018 model at the very point that the 2019 comes out.

And such a shame Seat Sound appears to be discontinued...

I don’t think the 2018 model year will lose out to much to the 2019. I know it will have the gearbox, but it will also have the copper and less spec.

As for Seat Sound, my Carbon doesnt have it. But it will after its retrofitted. Unlike Beats it’s only 2 extra speakers, no additional amplifier.

 

[Oldbutswift]

In the U.K. cars are mainly valued on their year of registration,not the model year,unless of course there is a total change of model,but with the Leon the difference amounts to just a "facelift".
So I would say 2 or 3 years down the road there will be little difference in the value of a 2018 or a 2019 model if both are put on the road before the end of the year.
Personally I would much rather have the earlier model if there is a significant price saving over a 2019 model because that amounts to a chunk of depreciation you have avoided on day one.

 

[Major Tom]

What was so awful about Beats?

 

[SitdownandhaveaCupratea]

What was so awful about Beats?

https://forums.seatcupra.net/index.php?threads/beats-audio-mk3-leon-vs-seat-sound.446331/page-2

 

[SitdownandhaveaCupratea]

Well, I spent some hours over the last couple of days reading about the new DSG 7-speed gearbox in the Cupra 2019 and it seems to be the DQ381 which is a wet clutch model use since 2015 or so in many mid-high performance VAG cars. Feedback seems to be that:

Positives:

• The performance is good overall with quick shifting
• Noise and economy improve when cruising due to the 7th gear
• A remap of the software dramatically improves performance

Negatives:

• Until warmed up, it can be clunky switching from 2nd to 3rd and sometimes 4th to 5th
• Sometimes switches down from 7th to 6th at inopportune moments when easing the foot off of the gas pedal

Sources used:

• Motortalk.de DQ381 vs DQ250 (Google translate needed): https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/dq3...w-was-ist-anders-als-beim-dq250-t6328628.html
• Motortalk.de Experiences with DQ381 (Google translate needed): https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/erfahrungen-mit-dem-dsg-dq381-7-gang-t6362835.html
• Pistonheads: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=86&t=1730107

It is just such a damn shame that Seat are controversially changing the styling for the 2019 models as otherwise I would be sold.

 

[Damo H]

Well, I spent some hours over the last couple of days reading about the new DSG 7-speed gearbox in the Cupra 2019 and it seems to be the DQ381 which is a wet clutch model use since 2015 or so in many mid-high performance VAG cars. Feedback seems to be that:

Positives:

• The performance is good overall with quick shifting
• Noise and economy improve when cruising due to the 7th gear
• A remap of the software dramatically improves performance

Negatives:

• Until warmed up, it can be clunky switching from 2nd to 3rd and sometimes 4th to 5th
• Sometimes switches down from 7th to 6th at inopportune moments when easing the foot off of the gas pedal

Sources used:

• Motortalk.de DQ381 vs DQ250 (Google translate needed): https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/dq3...w-was-ist-anders-als-beim-dq250-t6328628.html
• Motortalk.de Experiences with DQ381 (Google translate needed): https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/erfahrungen-mit-dem-dsg-dq381-7-gang-t6362835.html
• Pistonheads: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=86&t=1730107

It is just such a damn shame that Seat are controversially changing the styling for the 2019 models as otherwise I would be sold.

Honestly think you should get the 2018 model. The 6 speed is a good box and you don't have to worry about the styling.

It reminds me of Eddie Jordan talking about Yachts :O He was asked about Ferrari's ridiculous expensive Yacht in Monaco. He said something along the lines of.

"If you sat on a 10 million pound yacht, and your unhappy because someone has a 500 million pound yacht to the side of you, there is something wrong with you, not the yacht."

And the the 7 speed gearbox isn't THAT much better than the 6 Plus the 6 speeder is on a none WLTP 'bodge job' car. Remember these engines were never originally designed around the new WLTP regs. So I'd say your safer with a MY2018 car.