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hybrid K04 + 3inch TIP + hi-flow Discussion Thread.

Discussion in 'Badger5' started by ibizacupra, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    Hi guys

    To not complicate the k04 hybrid thread, I would ask we move the specific k04 hybrid, plus 3inch TIP plus hi-flow surge discussion into here, where all relevant information from the 2 or 3 actually affected people can share information and work together and with CR etc to try and resolve any issue.

    I will try and move some relevant posts out of the other threads into this, so all data and relevent surge hybrid k04 discussion, is in one place for everyone.

    many thanks
    bill

    moved thread posts from other threads into there.. hoping its not too messy!




    one big difference is smallport on roberts and largeport on wellys, however, the presumption is the turbine is the only issue on flow at those rpms, but the cyl head difference and differences in the 2 cars is not turbine related, but cyl head related also

    total flow is an important aspect here..

    clipped turbine is a suggestion which aids total flow at the small sacrifice of spool, but given these are full on at 3krpm, i dont think thats a major niggle personally.
    whether the engine can cope with the airflow at that rpm is my personal question. this is the major difference between the two cars who's data i've plotted.

    increasing flow capacity of engine, porting, cams, clipped turbine etc etc all area's which can enable the engine to deal with the flow being produced...

    native compressor and turbine used are'nt that different to their original homes tho, other than housings a/r in their native home which i dont know.

    its an interesting development.

    whether its just turbo spec alone however, i am not convinced. its one aspect for sure, but the only one which needs attention to achieve maximum flow potential, i'm not so sure.

    regards
    bill
     
    #1 ibizacupra, Dec 25, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  2. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Just going through the logs and graphs, it looks like Welly does expierence high G/S then low G/S, then it build again at 4krpm on one of his runs. You can see it on the blue line of the graph

    [​IMG]
     
    #2 rsmith, Dec 26, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2010
  3. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    without testing its conjecture robbie...
    mrsB lupo is stock smallport, vvt engine, just rods chucked in.. so is a gauge car when i get the hybrid on it..

    i am not convinced where choke point is occuring, and its likely not one area, but a couple... my guessing..

    cyl head intake is one which is something i think is one of them, and turbo hotside is the other.. clipped turbine is maybe one aid to this, and maybe some altering of the hotside itself.. Ports are a head thing, and wellys largeport suffering "less" surge says to me there is more to it than hotside of turbo alone.. his fmic and pipework is huge and i think there is some "fill time" which shows in the initialless airflow on the logs perhaps, for the same boost.. I dunno really..

    cams are an idea... the engine's VE must be lifted and flow at this initial spool level increased so the motor can "deal" with the airflow and surge back.
    its going to be interesting to see how we get on with this.
     
  4. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    yes on one of the runs.. what we cant see from the logs it actual boost as we're looking at map sensor logs at a sensor which is pegged on its max..
    Wellys does have some surge, but very small on intial spool.. its the order of magnitude difference between yours and his which is the issue which makes yours suffer more.

    obvious differences being largeport vs smallport.. as well as big fmic and pipework..
    clipped turbine would be on my to do list if turbine flow/hotside is the main culprit, but we cant ignore the cyl head differecnes either.. total flow.. and rpm where flows better/worse than the other being factors.. Think cams also, for increasing the VE at the given rpm etc...
     
  5. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Just out of interest, my FMIC is 7920cm3, i use 63mm pipework, but the inlet/outlet is 57mm, i just use reducers.Also from the my logs Vs Welly, he is running alot more boost than me low down in the rpm.

    What size is Welly's?(FMIC) I am wondering will it ever be the case that we may have to run these Hybrid's like the BT setups, i.e late spool up and in that case BT would have been a better option, food for thought.

    Can't wait to see what CR come up with though.
     
    #5 rsmith, Dec 27, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  6. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    Wellys spool is more like BT setup, but no BT is kicking out what the hybrid does from 3krpm... BT holds more airflow top end.. fare more, dependant on its spec of course. BT also costs more... not really a comparison.
    With bigger comes slower spool.. that said the hybrid can hardly be described as slow to spool - lol

    I dont know his sizes off hand.. 800x600 core 80mm deep rings a bell with 75mm ends I think. (80x60x8=38400cm^3)
     
  7. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Bill one thing i cannot understand as i continue looking over logs is that it would appear Welly can run higher boost for less airflow than me, hence he has more torque low down.

    If you look at his logs Vs mine, he can run 1.5bar'ish @ 3500rpm with an airflow of 146g/s, where as i can can only run 1.19bar for a relative 147g/s @ 3700rpm.

    How is this??
     
  8. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    Hi guys

    To not complicate the k04 hybrid thread, I would ask we move the specific k04 hybrid, plus 3inch TIP plus hi-flow surge discussion into here, where all relevant information from the 2 or 3 actually affected people can share information and work together and with CR etc to try and resolve any issue.

    I will try and move some relevant posts out of the other threads into this, so all data and relevent surge hybrid k04 discussion, is in one place for everyone.

    many thanks
    bill
     
    #8 ibizacupra, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  9. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Let me start with the spec of my car, I will list most if not all mods to the engine, so everything can be transparent.

    Cupra R BAM 225 46k miles, serviced every 6k, 5/40 full synch.
    034 Highflow Manifold for K04
    “NEW” CR K04 Hybrid turbo
    Badger5 3” TIP
    Blueflame 3” downpipe
    Blueflame 200 cell race cat
    Blueflame cat back system 2.75”(I think)
    7920cm3 FMIC with 63mm pipework and reducers for the 57mm inlet outlet.
    440c Green giant injects
    IE Rods
    NGK Iridium plugs 0.70 gap.
    Jetex cone filter (FC-08001)
    Descreened MAF (MAF is only 6months old, as is the N75)
    WMI injection from 10psi to full at 17psi, using a D03 nozzle mounted 3 inches from the FMIC outlet, 50/50 mix
    Forge DV with green spring, relocated to feed of the Inlet manifold.
    Forge Unos MBC in parallel with the n75, bleeds boost at 1.7bar


    Basically directly after installing the Hybrid K04 in conjunction with the 034 manifold and Samco Silicon TIP, we were experiencing cavitation on initial spool on WOT and slightly beyond, this was between 3200rpm and 4400rpm, we were not to worried about this and we did reduce it by slightly reducing boost, it must be noted we mapped this setup to run 1.6bar and then tail off to redline. Graph below, this setup was good, but could not flow top end due to the restrictive TIP and the cavitation was causing and undesired noise inside and outside the car.(squeal)

    Immediately following the installation of the 3” TIP the cavitiation turned into full blow surge between 3200rpm to 4400rpm on WOT with fully boost of 1.5bar. This surge was immediately visual on airflow logs graphs and respectively torque graphs, it was also clearly audible.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdVlOl0W7ZA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBRWTWqGohc

    The only way we have found to get around this surge is to reduce boost to 1.1bar before 4400rpm and then increase boost after this time, this works but made for a god awful power delivery, torque is severely impacted only pulling about 240lb/ft before 4400rpm and 265lb/ft after, down from a peak of 330lb/ft on the previous TIP and map.

    Here at the log/ pics and graphs.
    Boost graph, hybrid/highflow mani/Silicon TIP.

    [​IMG]

    Logs/graphs with Silicon TIP and 3” TIP and reduced map to relieve surge.

    Surge on the LG Dyno 3”TIP
    [​IMG]


    Reduced map LG graph, 3” TIP
    [​IMG]



    Pre 3" TIP install.
    Code:
    '002				Group B:	'115			
    RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    				TIME				
     /min	%	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
    1320	25.6	2.04	5.58	0	800	21.8	1020	1010
    1520	18.8	1.7	5.42	0.82	1480	19.5	1020	1010
    1560	76.7	6.12	26.39	1.62	1520	39.8	1020	1010
    1760	87.2	6.12	30.72	2.44	1640	84.2	1240	1050
    1960	102.3	7.82	41.97	3.24	1840	93.2	2490	1140
    2280	122.6	9.18	58.28	4.04	2120	114.3	2540	1290
    2640	152.6	11.9	86.17	4.85	2440	133.1	2490	1510
    3160	191.7	17.68	159.47	5.65	2840	181.2	2550	2030
    4200	191.7	19.72	197.53	6.45	4000	191.7	2550	2540
    4520	191.7	20.06	209.39	7.27	4240	191.7	2550	2540
    5000	191.7	19.72	226.58	8.07	4760	191.7	2550	2540
    5520	191.7	19.04	238.5	8.87	5280	191.7	2550	2530
    6040	191.7	17.34	246.44	9.68	5760	191.7	2550	2490
    6440	191.7	17.34	246.06	10.48	6240	191.7	2550	2460
    6840	191.7	16.32	251.5	11.28	6640	191.7	2550	2460
    5720	14.3	1.36	6.53	12.08	6520	14.3	1020	2080
    4480	11.3	0	8.97	12.9	5080	14.3	1020	1150
    3320	12.8	0	7.69	13.7	3880	12	1020	1070
    2320	13.5	0	5.75	14.5	2800	13.5	1020	1050
    1440	14.3	1.36	4.67	15.3	1840	14.3	1020	1040
    2400	12	0	6.03	16.1	1440	14.3	1020	1030
    3480	13.5	0	9.61	16.91	3520	12	1020	1030
    1520	94	6.46	28.31	131.17	1400	90.2	1830	1080
    1720	101.5	6.8	35.67	131.97	1600	97.7	2070	1150
    2000	102.3	7.82	46.03	132.79	1840	103.8	1990	1220
    2280	124.1	8.5	57.33	133.6	2160	115.8	1420	1330
    2640	152.6	11.56	86	134.4	2440	133.8	2520	1490
    3120	191.7	17	156.64	135.2	2840	178.9	2550	1970
    4200	191.7	18.02	193.47	136	3640	191.7	2550	2540
    4880	191.7	19.04	214.08	136.82	4640	191.7	2550	2540
    5000	191.7	19.38	221.28	137.62	4920	191.7	2550	2540
    5560	191.7	18.36	235.56	138.42	5280	191.7	2550	2510
    6040	191.7	17.34	242.25	139.23	5840	191.7	2550	2500
    6480	191.7	16.32	242.64	140.05	6280	191.7	2550	2440
    6880	191.7	16.32	250.06	140.83	6640	191	2550	2440
    6680	13.5	1.36	75.64	141.65	7040	187.2	2550	2410
    5240	14.3	1.36	11.17	142.45	5920	14.3	1020	1290
    4040	12.8	0	9.75	143.25	4640	13.5	1020	1100
    2960	13.5	0	7.19	144.05	3480	12	1020	1060
    2040	15	0	5.58	144.86	2480	13.5	1020	1040
    1280	14.3	1.02	3.31	145.65	1600	13.5	1020	1030
    1120	15.8	1.36	3.64	146.46	1160	15	1020	1020
    2480	14.3	1.36	7.17	147.26	1640	13.5	1020	1020
    3000	15.8	1.36	9	148.08	3120	14.3	1020	1020
    2800	12.8	0	7.33	148.88	2840	14.3	1020	1020
    2720	13.5	0	7.72	149.7	2760	12.8	1020	1030
    2640	12.8	0	6.53	150.5	2680	12.8	1020	1040
    2600	17.3	1.7	9.42	151.3	2600	13.5	1020	1040
    2560	18.8	1.7	10.08	152.1	2560	19.5	1020	1030
    2600	85.7	7.14	48.69	152.91	2560	19.5	1020	1030
    2880	121.8	9.52	78.81	153.71	2720	100	2550	1190
    3280	191.7	15.98	155	154.51	3040	156.4	2550	1770
    4000	191.7	18.36	184.75	155.31	3640	191.7	2550	2540
    4600	191.7	19.38	204.33	156.13	4320	191.7	2550	2540
    5240	191.7	19.38	226.89	156.93	4920	191.7	2550	2540
    5760	191.7	18.36	245.31	157.74	5640	191.7	2550	2510
    6240	191.7	17.34	245.67	158.54	6000	191.7	2550	2450
    6640	191.7	15.98	250.56	159.34	6480	191.7	2550	2440
    6000	14.3	1.36	9.42	160.16	6720	12	1020	1770
    4960	12	0	10.31	160.96	5480	14.3	1020	1130
    3720	12.8	0	9.22	161.76	4280	12	1020	1070
    2680	14.3	0	7.44	162.56	3160	12	1020	1050
    3240	12	0	7.33	163.37	3240	12.8	1020	1040
    3200	13.5	0	8.78	164.17	3200	13.5	1020	1040
    3120	13.5	0	8.33	164.97	3160	12.8	1020	1040
    2960	12	0	7.56	165.79	3040	14.3	1020	1040
    2200	13.5	0	4.92	166.59	2680	13.5	1020	1040
    1320	16.5	1.36	4.75	167.37	1760	13.5	1020	1030
    2600	14.3	1.36	7.58	168.19	1520	14.3	1020	1030
    2720	16.5	1.7	9	169	2840	15.8	1020	1020
    2600	27.8	3.4	24.53	169.8	2600	12.8	1020	1020
    2760	107.5	8.5	68.58	170.6	2640	91	2550	1090
    3120	175.9	13.6	129.25	171.42	2920	136.8	2550	1590
    3800	191.7	18.7	185.33	172.22	3400	191.7	2550	2540
    4560	191.7	19.38	200.89	173.02	4240	191.7	2550	2540
    5040	191.7	19.38	225.11	173.84	4800	191.7	2550	2540
    5560	191.7	18.7	240.39	174.64	5280	191.7	2550	2520
    6080	191.7	17.68	244.53	175.44	5800	191.7	2550	2480
    6520	191.7	16.32	245.31	176.24	6280	191.7	2550	2430
    6200	12	1.36	0	177.05	6680	191.7	1020	2440
    4840	14.3	1.36	12.17	177.85	5520	14.3	1020	1230
    3720	12	0	8.14	178.65	4280	12	1020	1090
    2680	12.8	0	7.31	179.45	3160	13.5	1020	1050
    2120	12.8	0	4.97	180.25	2200	13.5	1020	1040
    2800	13.5	0	7.5	181.07	2800	12.8	1020	1040
    2760	13.5	0	7.22	181.87	2800	13.5	1020	1040
    2680	12	0	6.53	182.67	2720	13.5	1020	1040
    

    Post TIP install
    Code:
    Group A:	'002				Group B:	'115			
    	RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    TIME					TIME				
    STAMP	 /min	%	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
    6.05	2000	94	7.14	39.14	5.63	1880	88	2530	1050
    6.83	2280	113.5	8.84	54.36	6.45	2120	104.5	2530	1220
    7.65	2600	142.1	10.88	79.89	7.25	2440	125.6	2500	1460
    8.46	3040	191.7	16.66	138.89	8.05	2800	165.4	2550	1860
    9.26	3720	191.7	19.04	220.69	8.86	3400	191.7	2550	2540
    10.06	4360	191.7	19.72	212.75	9.66	4040	191.7	2550	2540
    10.88	5040	191.7	20.06	225.69	10.46	4720	191.7	2550	2540
    11.68	5600	191.7	19.72	250.64	11.28	5360	191.7	2550	2540
    12.48	6160	191.7	18.36	254.56	12.08	5880	191.7	2550	2530
    									
    									
    129.15	1520	93.2	6.46	29.39	129.55	1640	96.2	2540	1140
    129.95	1760	96.2	7.48	32.81	130.35	1880	101.5	2550	1220
    130.75	2000	109	8.84	46.08	131.17	2160	117.3	2530	1350
    131.57	2320	124.8	9.18	59.89	131.97	2520	136.8	2530	1560
    132.38	2720	154.9	11.9	90.36	132.77	2920	182	2550	2070
    133.18	3200	191.7	17.68	215.69	133.58	3520	191.7	2550	2540
    133.98	3880	191.7	16.66	126.94	134.38	4160	191.7	2550	2540
    134.8	4480	191.7	19.38	193	135.2	4880	191.7	2550	2540
    135.6	5120	191.7	19.38	232	136	5400	191.7	2550	2540
    136.4	5680	191.7	19.38	245.31	136.8	5960	191.7	2550	2540
    137.2	6200	191.7	17.34	253.47	137.61	6440	191.7	2550	2540
    138.01	6640	191.7	17	256.08	138.41	6880	191.7	2550	2470
    138.81	7040	191.7	17.34	263.89	139.21	7200	190.2	2550	2490
    139.61	7160	86.5	3.4	0	140.01	6240	14.3	1020	1400
    
    
    Lastest MAP logs to reduce surge/boost( but it is still there, just less vicious
    Code:
    '002				Group B:	'115			
    RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    				TIME				
     /min	%	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
    2200	93.2	6.8	43	12.46	2320	101.5	2520	1200
    2440	114.3	9.18	58.42	13.27	2600	130.1	2520	1490
    2760	150.4	11.56	91.06	14.07	2960	175.9	2550	2030
    3240	191	15.3	119.47	14.89	3480	191.7	2550	2130
    3720	191.7	15.3	147.28	15.69	4000	191.7	2550	2190
    4280	191.7	16.66	166.25	16.49	4560	191.7	2550	2380
    4840	191.7	18.7	203	17.31	5120	191.7	2550	2470
    5400	191.7	19.72	235.25	18.11	5640	191.7	2550	2400
    5880	191.7	19.04	241.14	18.91	6120	191.7	2550	2450
    6360	191.7	17.68	251.5	19.71	6560	191.7	2550	2440
    6720	191.7	16.66	249.89	20.52	6960	184.2	2550	2470
    7120	191.7	17	253.47	21.32	7280	178.9	2550	2420
    6640	12	1.36	0	22.12	5960	14.3	990	1230
    5400	15	1.36	15.44	22.94	4840	12	990	1070
    4240	12.8	0	10.47	23.72	3680	13.5	990	1030
    3160	13.5	0	8.72	24.54	2800	14.3	990	1020
    3760	12	0	9.33	25.35	3760	12	990	1010
    3600	12.8	0	9.08	26.15	3560	12.8	990	1010
    

    I have performed a full leak test on the car to 1.7bar, undone the N249 bypass and regapped my plugs(0.70), just to rule those pesky areas out.

    As is, we have tried multiple different maps on the car to try and get around the surge and my tuner has spend days/nights working the issue, unfortunately to no avail as it is quite apparent at this stage that it is a hardware issue and in no uncertain terms a “show stopper” for the CR K04 hybrid IMO.

    As is the car in sitting in the drive way unable to boost over 1.1bar :-( and looking quite sad.


    Bill/Welly, can we get your Data up and Joe, please chime in at will as you know more about this that me.


    P.S if you think i missed anything, please let me know.

    Regards

    Rob
     
    #9 rsmith, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  10. IbanezDan51

    IbanezDan51 Active Member

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    Robbie,

    Is everyone experiencing that sound? It sounds like a knackered Recirc valve constantly opening and shutting or something. I have experienced none of these problems and have a similar set up.

    My car holds 21-22 psi and sometimes creeps to 24psi at WOT under VERY high loads but no more. Its pulling 256 g/s of air and drivers perfect. Something is seriously wrong with either your mapping or you have a physical problem.

    Odd!
     
  11. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    do you run a hi-flow exhaust manifold dan?
     
  12. IbanezDan51

    IbanezDan51 Active Member

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    No bud, just a standard ported one at the moment. But I can only assume running similar boost levels I would be getting the same sound.
     
  13. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    You can here it in the 2 pootube videos i posted in the #9 post.
     
  14. IbanezDan51

    IbanezDan51 Active Member

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    Yes I hear it, but I dont understand it -I thought you only realy suffered from compressor surge when you lifted off the throttle. Not when on it...That is very odd....
     
  15. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    thats one likely significant difference.. less overall airflow than roberts, and wellys previously when it ran the hi-flow ex mani

    some more airflow, then its then something starts to choke and the compressor then chuff chuff's
     
  16. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    you describe compressor stall... which is'nt the surge under throttle we're describing..
    non-working dv noise is what pops up on searching compressor surge on google
     
  17. simgti

    simgti Guest


    you running the forge 007P with green spring with pressure acting on the base of the piston?
     
  18. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    I am not sure of your point here, but this has zero to do with it, i have tried all of the forge springs.

    This is NOT a DV issue, i did think of this and reserved the DV as a test, it did nothing.
     
    #18 rsmith, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  19. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    hi guys i have some good news.i by mistake was raising the boost from my greddy boostcontroller from my low pressure and the gain was 5 but the set gain was 0.30 and the car surged in all gears accelerating from low rpm.i turned bc to hi pressure where the gain was 5 but the set gain was 0.80 and the surge disappeared.i did several runs raising the pressure til 1.65 bar overboost.i think we are in good way.the difference between my set up and rsmiths is the n/a cams the porting turbo exactly like badger did+ported the collector of the turbo to meet the size of the collectors manifold and clipped turbine wheel .saturday i will do some logs with a friend and i will try to post the results.
     
    #19 ilias_cupra, Dec 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2010
  20. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    What gasket did you use between the manifold and turbo?
     

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