Dismiss Notice
Hi Guest, stickers are available from our online store.

hybrid K04 + 3inch TIP + hi-flow Discussion Thread.

Discussion in 'Badger5' started by ibizacupra, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    its a store here in greece which makes flanges i took with me the original s3 gasket and i told him to make me the same with bigger cycle.this flange is thicker andit looks like the original .i have another one ,i will take a photo and try to show it to you.how i can put photos in this site?
     
  2. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
    Forum Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Messages:
    31,329
    Likes Received:
    15
    i look forward to your logs.. sounds promising :thumbup:
    thanks for sharing :)
     
  3. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    hi bill i have send you an email with photos of the flange for 034 mani if you can post them thanks
     
  4. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
    Forum Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Messages:
    31,329
    Likes Received:
    15
    will do, thanks

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #24 ibizacupra, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  5. IbanezDan51

    IbanezDan51 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bill, I believe the problem is now being told that its down to not enough flow which is causing the surge. As I have an AGU head (which has the larger ports so better flow) I believe this is stopping me from getting any whilst retaining an OEM manifold. If I upgrade the manifold im led to believe its going to surge. Will things like running a bigger filter (I have a naff pipercross one at the moment) and possibly something like an SEM intake manifold help? Im currently using a standard s3 manifold with light porting to get it to roughly the same size without leaving the small port runners to thin.
     
  6. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
    Forum Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Messages:
    31,329
    Likes Received:
    15
    increased flow to the turbo/turbine *may* also push you to surge yes, if Roberts is a gauge, however as you say you are largeport, which I believe also has a +ve effect, BUT, if the total flow on initial spool cant get out past the turbo then surge is likely yes.. on higher than 1.2bar levels are concerned. Wellys does'nt have this, and although its on the edge of some surge before and after its 034/stock mani fiasco, its particular setup does not seem to suffer to the extent of roberts LCR.

    Is your turbo ported like did to Wellys? This is a difference we cannot account for currently which may be a factor in the differences we are seeing.

    regards
    bill

    Ps. nice car :thumbup:
     
  7. IbanezDan51

    IbanezDan51 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mine is un ported at the moment - if and when I go for a high flow manifold it will be done then. So by increasing the flow it has a bad affect on the amount of surge, why does having a better flowing head help? Surely this would be the opposite? And some have said the 3" tip has reduced surge and others its increased it? Im very lost with all of this now lol Sorry for what may seem an idiotic post.
     
  8. Robbie C

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,958
    Likes Received:
    1
    I can't account for it's accuracy but I found this a useful explanation in layman's terms: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/77587-what-is-compressor-surge-explanation-within/

    If my understanding is correct, it's all a matter of balance. If you increase the flow of exhaust gases with a ported/larger bore manifold then the turbine will be exposed to a greater mass of expelled gas from the engine and spin the turbo shaft faster - causing the compressor wheel to spin faster as a result.

    As the compressor wheel is significantly larger than the turbine it is able to shift large amounts of air that is subsequently compressed and forced into the engine. If the cylinder head isn't able to shift this air as quickly as the compressor wheel is providing it then the turbine wheel will begin to slow, causing the compressor wheel to do the same, potentially also inducing compressor stall.

    As the incoming airflow is reduced by a slower moving compressor wheel, the engine is now able to expel all the air as exhaust gases, causing the turbine wheel to spin back up and surging the compressor wheel back into life - then round and round we go.

    By increasing the volumetric efficiency of the engine as Bill mentioned, either by using higher lift cams and/or a largeport head you're addressing the balance between the incoming air in the cylinder head and outgoing gases hitting the turbine. You're helping it breath well enough to process all of the air the compressor wheel is able to throw at it at WOT. A restrictive manifold should therefore prevent the turbine from ever spinning fast enough to create this surging behaviour.

    The above assumes that the cylinder head is acting as a bottleneck here, and not simply that the hotside is too restrictive relative to an outsized compressor wheel.

    Ilias - are you using a largeport head or only cams?
     
    #28 Robbie C, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  9. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    i have smallport and cams
     
  10. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ilias, We eagerly look forward to your logs so we can see what is going on.

    I was thinking further about this today and it don't think we are maxing out the cars VE this low down with airflow( i was flowing more with the silicon TIP low down) i think more over the fact of the matter is the hotside of the turbo is mismatched to the compressor, if we take a GT2860RS with a 35lb/min(same as the hybrid) compressor wheel they don't cause surge and can boost to 1.4/5 bar by 3500 rpm, so its not so much the VE, or VVT or Large port head, yes these may help but are not the source of the problem.

    I think in simple terms the problem is because we are trying to use a Large compressor wheel with a to small of a turbine wheel. I would be of the opinion that Ilias's clipped turbo has helped relieve the problem but we really need to see logs.

    Guys, anyone know where i can get new bigger gaskets made, i might as well get them for when my turbo comes off.

    Happy New Year


    P.S found this today, not sure how accurate it is.

    VW 1.8T VE%
    0-3000 RPM 85%
    3000-4000 95%
    4000-6000 100%
    6500+ 95%
     
    #30 rsmith, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  11. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    and my opinion is that the problem is on the hotside which is smaller than rs6s .if you could see how much i have ported the hot side (i forgot to take photos)its like going from td05 to td06 mitsubishi turbo.i think i helped it flow a lot. i think that these wheels from the hybrid are the same with k04 2.0 tfsi vag motors.they re a/r turbine housing is bigger than ours.if cr could make-find a turbine housing with bigger a/r the problem would dissapear.tomorrow i will do some logs but my file isnt finished yet so we will see.
    the turbine wheel isnt small is the same as k04 tfsi motors.the a/r is small

    i ve searched a lot and the wheels of the hybrid are exactly the same to 2.0 k04 tfsi, here in greece they ve put this turbo in 1.8 tfsi motor and it gets350-360 hp
     
    #31 ilias_cupra, Dec 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2010
  12. brwmogazos

    brwmogazos Interceptor

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ηλιας

    youre running unitronic map and you had just your compressor wheel upgraded in your k03s ?

    You own a dark grey ibiza cupra?

    brwmogazos@hotmail.com

    add me on msn if you can.

    thanks and sorry for the OFF Topic
     
  13. joe@tdr

    joe@tdr Guest

    Now we are starting to get on the right track !!

    As you describe below is one form of surging , the version we are getting is slightly different as it's based on pressure ratio aka boost pressure and airflow

    To keep things super simple , to make it easy to understand ,imagine the workable airflow is like 5th gear in your car. Very low rpm in that gear would be surge and the rpm limiter is the chock line

    Now let's drive the car around in 5th gear at 300 rpm and see how it likes it , it's going to cough and buck , pretty much what this compressor is doing .


     
  14. joe@tdr

    joe@tdr Guest

    Hi , what you were getting was something completely different . Your boost controller wasn't set up correctly, with more airflow you have different control characteristic . The PID duty cycle which controls the boost solenoid was either over or under compansating .

    What you were getting was boost oscillation
     
  15. ilias_cupra

    ilias_cupra Guest

    i think you are right but can you explain me what do you mean exactly because my english arent too good thanks
     
  16. ryan_s3

    ryan_s3 Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    0
    headwork,inlet manifold,cams and capacity all help to prevent surge
    Also changing to a larger turbo exhaust housing which in turn creates lag.
     
    #36 ryan_s3, Jan 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  17. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi Ilias and happy new year,

    Did you get a chance to do some logs, it would be interesting to see your airflow and boost, in particular how much aifrlow you achieve and how much boost and what rpm you come on boost at would be very useful to us.

    Thanks
     
  18. welly.

    welly. Badger 5 Edition

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, I have TOTALLY missed this thread annoyingly...

    Rob, what did you want from me here? Just a list and I shall post the stuff you ask for. Or would you prefer me to just mimic your epic post on the page before?

    Let me know...
     
  19. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,797
    Likes Received:
    1
    Epic, LOL and happy new year.
    I guess it would be best to list the spec of your car like mine, just mimic the post and stuff.
     
  20. welly.

    welly. Badger 5 Edition

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spec of the S3.

    S3 AGU (Was originally APY) 210 142k miles, thrashed every single day.
    Non wideband fuel control.
    OEM Manifold with ported collector.
    Large port head.
    CR K04 Hybrid turbo with ported wastegate.
    Badger5 3” TIP.
    Pipewerx 3” downpipe.
    De cat.
    Miltek non res.
    13680 cm3 FMIC with 76mm pipework.
    550cc Bosch injectors.
    IE Rods.
    Bosch Super 4 plugs.
    Jetex cone filter (FC-08001).
    Screened MAF.
    Forge DV with yellow spring.
    Forge Unos MBC in parallel with the N75c, bleeds boost at 1.7bar.
    N249 deleted.
    EVAP deleted.

    Most recent logs:

    Code:
    	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'115			
    		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    Marker	STAMP	 /min	%	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	 CF	 CF	 CF	 CF	STAMP	 /min	%	 mbar	 mbar
    															
    															
    															
    															
    	209.09	2320	29.3	2.46	13.14	209.49	0	0	0	0	209.89	2320	29.3	1010	1040
    	210.29	2320	30.8	2.46	14.14	210.69	0	0	0	0	211.1	2320	39.1	1010	1050
    	219.09	2600	30.8	2.46	15.17	219.49	0	0	0	0	218.64	2600	30.8	1010	1050
    	220.29	2560	36.8	2.87	19.67	220.69	0	0	0	0	219.89	2560	31.6	1010	1050
    	221.59	2560	32.3	2.46	16.33	221.99	0	0	0	0	221.11	2560	42.1	1010	1070
    	222.8	2520	25.6	2.05	12.53	223.19	0	0	0	0	222.39	2560	28.6	1010	1060
    	224.19	2480	25.6	2.05	12.44	224.69	0	0	0	0	223.71	2480	25.6	1010	1040
    	225.7	2400	26.3	2.05	12.22	226.1	0	0	0	0	225.19	2440	25.6	1010	1040
    	226.91	2400	64.7	5.33	36.81	227.39	0	0	0	0	226.48	2400	41.4	1010	1030
    	228.3	2600	140.6	9.84	74.81	228.78	0	0	0	0	227.87	2520	120.3	1740	1350
    	229.68	3000	191.7	15.58	133.86	230.08	3	3	5.3	3	229.19	2840	191.7	2550	2200
    	231.01	3600	191.7	16.81	157.89	231.47	5.3	3	4.5	5.3	230.48	3360	191.7	2550	2470
    	232.38	4160	191.7	18.04	183.44	232.88	5.3	6	4.5	4.5	231.89	3960	191.7	2550	2540
    	233.68	4640	191.7	18.45	218.81	234.08	4.5	5.3	4.5	4.5	233.28	4520	191.7	2550	2540
    	235.01	5160	191.7	18.86	243.58	235.49	4.5	5.3	3.8	4.5	234.48	4960	191.7	2550	2540
    	236.4	5640	191.7	18.86	255.78	236.88	3.8	3.8	3.8	3	235.98	5520	191.7	2550	2540
    	237.89	6080	191.7	18.45	264.14	238.38	2.3	2.3	3.8	2.3	237.41	5960	191.7	2550	2530
    	239.28	6440	191.7	18.04	268.19	239.68	1.5	1.5	2.3	1.5	238.78	6320	191.7	2550	2520
    	240.58	6760	191.7	17.22	272.08	240.97	0.8	0.8	0	0.8	240.09	6680	191.7	2550	2490
    	241.78	7000	191.7	16.4	275	242.17	0.8	0.8	0	0.8	241.37	6920	191.7	2550	2500
    	242.97	7240	191.7	15.99	274.39	243.49	0.8	0.8	0	0.8	242.57	7160	191.7	2550	2500
    	244.29	5840	191.7	18.04	262.64	244.69	0	0	0	3	243.89	6760	56.4	2550	1620
    	245.49	6040	191.7	18.04	263.22	245.9	0	0	0	3	245.09	5960	191.7	2550	2540
    	246.69	6200	191.7	18.04	267.75	247.09	0	3	0	3	246.29	6160	191.7	2550	2540
    	247.92	5080	3	0	1.53	248.4	0	0	0	0	247.49	5520	11.3	1010	1580
    	249.29	4760	4.5	0	4.36	249.77	0	0	0	0	248.78	4840	3	1010	1100
    	250.68	4560	7.5	0	6.03	251.16	0	0	0	0	250.27	4640	6.8	1010	1070
    	252.08	4280	9	0	7.31	252.46	0	0	0	0	251.58	4400	8.3	1010	1070
    	253.39	4000	9.8	0	7.44	253.77	0	0	0	0	252.88	4120	9	1010	1070
    	254.6	3680	11.3	0	8.25	255.07	0	0	0	0	254.17	3760	10.5	1010	1060
    	255.98	3360	11.3	0	7.06	256.48	0	0	0	0	255.56	3440	10.5	1010	1060
    	257.36	3080	11.3	0	6.97	257.76	0	0	0	0	256.96	3120	11.3	1010	1050
    	258.56	2880	11.3	0	6.33	258.97	0	0	0	0	258.16	2920	11.3	1010	1050
    	259.76	2680	11.3	0	6.08	260.16	0	0	0	0	259.36	2760	11.3	1010	1050
    	261.07	2480	12	0	6.08	261.47	0	0	0	0	260.56	2560	12	1010	1040
    	262.27	2320	12	0	5.69	262.67	0	0	0	0	261.87	2360	12	1010	1040
    	263.47	2280	12	0	5.53	263.87	0	0	0	0	263.07	2280	12	1010	1040
    	264.76	2200	12	0	5.33	265.16	0	0	0	0	264.28	2240	12	1010	1040
    	266.16	2160	12	0	5.28	266.67	0	0	0	0	265.66	2160	12	1010	1040
    	267.45	2080	12	0	4.72	267.85	0	0	0	0	267.07	2080	12	1010	1040
    	268.76	1960	12	1.23	4.42	269.26	0	0	0	0	268.27	2000	12	1010	1040
    	270.15	1880	26.3	2.05	9.94	270.57	0	0	0	0	269.67	1920	16.5	1010	1040
    	271.45	1840	28.6	2.46	10.78	271.85	0	0	0	0	271.05	1880	27.1	1010	1030
    	272.76	1800	33.1	2.46	11.81	273.16	0	0	0	0	272.27	1800	33.1	1010	1040
    	273.96	1720	35.3	2.87	12.11	274.36	0	3	0	3	273.56	1760	33.1	1010	1040
    	275.26	1720	42.9	3.28	14.25	275.66	0	3	0	3	274.86	1720	42.1	1010	1050
    	276.55	1720	42.1	3.28	13.64	276.95	0	3	0	1.5	276.06	1720	41.4	1010	1050
    	277.86	1680	41.4	2.87	12.86	278.36	0	3	0	0	277.37	1720	42.1	1010	1050
    	279.16	1680	51.1	3.69	16.78	279.54	0	3	0	0	278.76	1680	47.4	1010	1050
    	280.47	1680	51.1	3.69	16.42	280.95	0	0	0	0	279.96	1680	51.9	1010	1060
    	281.75	1680	52.6	3.69	16.81	282.15	0	0	0	0	281.35	1680	51.1	1010	1070
    	282.95	1400	15	1.23	2.58	283.38	0	0	0	0	282.55	1400	18.8	1130	1070
    	284.25	1680	23.3	4.1	23.19	284.65	0	0	0	0	283.85	1920	11.3	1010	1040
    	285.46	2280	10.5	1.23	4.83	285.85	0	0	0	0	285.05	2320	10.5	1010	1060
    	286.74	2200	11.3	0	4.92	287.14	0	0	0	0	286.34	2200	11.3	1010	1040
    	288.05	2080	24.8	2.05	11.61	288.45	0	0	0	0	287.66	2120	11.3	1010	1040
    	289.25	2040	27.1	2.05	10.94	289.65	0	0	0	0	288.85	2080	26.3	1010	1040
    	290.44	2040	30.1	2.05	11.89	290.84	0	0	0	0	290.04	2040	30.1	1010	1040
    	291.65	2040	30.1	2.05	11.75	292.15	0	0	0	0	291.24	2040	30.1	1010	1040
    	293.05	1960	10.5	0	4.08	293.45	0	0	0	0	292.65	2000	10.5	1010	1040
    	294.26	1920	11.3	0	4.14	294.77	0	0	0	0	293.85	1920	10.5	1010	1040
    	295.64	1800	12.8	1.23	5	296.04	0	0	0	0	295.24	1840	11.3	1010	1040
    	296.84	2000	18	1.23	3	297.25	0	0	0	0	296.44	1680	13.5	1710	1030
    	298.15	2280	35.3	3.28	17.17	298.55	0	0	0	0	297.65	2280	19.5	1010	1040
    	299.35	2480	95.5	6.15	49.97	299.75	0	0	0	0	298.95	2400	71.4	1010	1070
    	300.55	2960	191.7	13.94	130.75	300.95	0	0	0	3	300.15	2760	151.9	2550	1580
    	301.75	3920	191.7	17.63	200	302.18	3	3	3	3	301.35	3560	191.7	2550	2500
    	303.04	4920	191.7	18.45	227.97	303.56	3	6	3	2.3	302.64	4640	191.7	2550	2540
    	304.36	5800	191.7	18.45	263.22	304.76	3	5.3	3	2.3	303.96	5560	191.7	2550	2540
    	305.56	6440	191.7	18.45	267.31	305.96	3	5.3	2.3	2.3	305.16	6240	191.7	2550	2520
    	306.76	6960	191.7	17.22	275	307.16	2.3	4.5	2.3	2.3	306.36	6800	191.7	2550	2490
    	307.99	7320	191.7	16.4	275.58	308.34	0	0	0	0	307.54	7200	191.7	2550	2500
    	309.14	5800	191.7	18.04	261	309.65	0	3	0	4.5	308.74	5640	191.7	2550	2100
    	310.45	6160	191.7	18.45	265.5	310.85	3	3	0	3.8	310.05	6040	191.7	2550	2530
    	311.75	6480	191.7	18.45	267.53	312.15	3	2.3	0	3.8	311.35	6360	191.7	2550	2520
    	313.04	6760	191.7	17.63	273.25	313.44	2.3	2.3	0	3.8	312.56	6640	191.7	2550	2520
    	314.45	7000	191.7	16.4	274.39	314.85	0.8	0.8	0	1.5	313.95	6920	191.7	2550	2510
    	315.65	7280	191.7	15.99	273.25	316.05	0	0	0	0	315.25	7200	191.7	2550	2500
    	316.85	5800	163.2	21.73	215.36	317.25	3	0	0	0	316.45	7360	191.7	1010	2500
    	318.15	6080	191.7	18.04	263.69	318.65	5.3	3	0	3	317.65	6000	191.7	2550	2540
    	319.54	6240	191.7	18.45	261.92	319.94	5.3	3	0	3	319.06	6200	191.7	2550	2540
    	320.85	6360	191.7	18.45	269.11	321.23	5.3	2.3	0	5.3	320.34	6320	191.7	2550	2530
    	322.03	6480	191.7	18.45	269.11	322.43	3	2.3	0	5.3	321.63	6440	191.7	2550	2530
    	323.23	5640	4.5	1.23	0	323.63	0	0	0	0	322.83	6440	42.9	1010	2540
    	324.54	4960	3.8	0	3.78	324.95	0	0	0	0	324.04	5120	3	1010	1140
    	325.84	4520	6	0	5.89	326.32	0	0	0	0	325.42	4680	6	1010	1080
    	327.12	4160	8.3	0	6.72	327.54	0	0	0	0	326.74	4240	7.5	1010	1070
    	328.34	3800	9	0	6.89	328.83	0	0	0	0	327.92	3920	9	1010	1060
    	329.76	3440	9	0	6.56	330.22	0	0	0	0	329.23	3560	9.8	1010	1060
    	331.02	3120	10.5	0	6.69	331.44	0	0	0	0	330.62	3240	10.5	1010	1050
    	332.22	2920	10.5	0	6.03	332.74	0	0	0	0	331.82	2960	11.3	1010	1050
    	333.63	2680	11.3	0	6	334.03	0	0	0	0	333.23	2760	11.3	1010	1050
    
    
    Will do the LG Dyno thing later and post.
     
    #40 welly., Jan 4, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice