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hybrid K04 + 3inch TIP + hi-flow Discussion Thread.

Discussion in 'Badger5' started by ibizacupra, Dec 25, 2010.

  1. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar FrankenTurbo

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    Well, let's see what Bill can make of it on this setup. Then we can discuss one-off sales. This would have to go through Bill, if he's ok with that.
     
  2. prawn

    prawn Active Member

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    That sounds pretty amazing Bill. Is the N75 mapping able to controll spikes well enough?

    Must be seriously rapid. Hoping the 7 degree clip on mine won't stop it from making similar results when i get to that stage!
     
  3. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    essentially yes. I will email info to you..
     
  4. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    no egt sensor on this S3... so not able to log it.. but I would say yes.. its running hot hot hot at these levels.. WMI is strongly advised on this one.

    Its ability to hold boost as much as I ask of it, is what I am interested in.. N75 control only, so no tapering off of boost. 85% duty cycle, so there's more left in it if the heat can be dealt with. I have had it briefly producing 29psi over 7krpm.... not intended of course, but it did it.

    riding the edge of the surge line is an arse to control..

    not quite well-esque but this has'nt got wmi on board as yet
     
  5. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    clipping the inherant spike has proven tricky but done.. tapering in the boost on the edge of the surge line is equally difficult. many hours on the dyno and maps later... nearly there

    the clip on yours will make it more like lupo in performance terms than this one. (245g/s from 1.5-1.6bar boost)
     
  6. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    sneak peak of airflows
    Code:
    RPM	Mass Flow
    	
     /min	 g/s
    1600	11.33
    1600	12.08
    1680	27.14
    1720	28.61
    2200	43.72
    2720	67.36
    3320	125.64
    3880	177.11
    4360	187.43 *** surge issue around here on higher boost than 20-21psi
    4880	213.58
    5360	243.83
    5800	252.36
    6200	257.92
    6640	264.69
    7000	266.94
    
     
  7. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    final map done.. Car needs a better fuel pump as fuel pressure is dropping after 6krpm and going leaner than 'ok'
    MAF is bog stock narrow band S3 one.. screens etc all original
    with WMI and additional cooling/timing possible, this can get towards wellys figures.. where it is short overall of them as is.. Good airflow, but clearly some inefficiencies in combustion process (heat) holding power back, and top end fueling is just not being support by the cars tired fuel pump.

    Code:
    Group A:	'003				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
    	RPM	Mass Flow	Load	Ign. Timing		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
    TIME					TIME					TIME				
    STAMP	 /min	 g/s	 %	 °BTDC	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
    
    
    99.32	1600	13.22	9.4	27.8	98.62	0	0	0	0	99.01	1600	30	0	1020
    100.54	1640	23.67	42.7	21.8	99.73	0	0	0	0	100.13	1600	30	0	1020
    101.61	1640	27.67	76.5	19.5	100.9	0	0	0	0	101.22	1640	29	95.3	1090
    102.83	2000	37.92	87.8	21.8	102.05	0	0	0	0	102.42	1840	27	95.3	1180
    104.03	2600	60.47	97.6	24	103.23	0	0	0	0	103.63	2440	26	95.3	1360
    105.23	3160	117.58	100	15.8	104.44	0	0	0	0	104.84	2960	26	95.3	1810
    106.42	3720	140.47	100	18.8	105.63	0	0	0	0	106.03	3520	26	71.8	2320
    107.63	4200	157.83	100	19.5	106.84	0	0	0	0	107.24	4040	26	71.8	2420
    108.74	4640	200.47	100	17.3	108.02	0	0	0	3	108.41	4520	26	74.9	2470
    109.94	5160	232.81	100	13.5	109.14	0	0	0	3	109.54	5000	28	78.4	2540
    111.13	5600	247.36	100	16.5	110.34	0	0	0	2.3	110.72	5480	30	80.4	2540
    112.33	6040	252.81	100	16.5	111.53	0	0	0	2.3	111.91	5880	32	83.9	2540
    113.54	6400	263.69	100	15	112.73	0	3	0	2.3	113.13	6280	33	86.3	2540
    114.74	6880	267.53	100	15.8	113.95	0	4.5	0	4.5	114.36	6720	36	87.5	2540
    115.93	7200	261.92	100	13.5	115.14	0	4.5	0	4.5	115.53	7080	39	88.6	2540
    117.13	7480	271.5	100	13.5	116.33	0	4.5	0	3.8	116.74	7400	41	89.8	2540
    
    
    [​IMG]

    The dyno compared to the revo which was on there before.. (highest K04 car ever here btw! tough act to follow - hehe)
    the wobbly drop off >6krpm is aligned with the fueling going lean with dropping fuel pressure after then. New pump will fix this
    [​IMG]
     
    #687 ibizacupra, Sep 22, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  8. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar FrankenTurbo

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    Bill -- can you reckon the impact of the manifold on spool? The chart above shows 1bar of boost at ~3500rpm. How does that compare to other setups?
     
  9. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    wellys boost overlayed.. obviously only showing map sensor limit but it shows spool between them
    XS power mani plotted on there

    Also added its original revo/K04 airflow and boost log

    [​IMG]
     
    #689 ibizacupra, Sep 22, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  10. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Looks like your having to do a lot of dancing around to avoid surge, 4500rpm before your on full boost, your boost graph is probably opposite to a normal one, spool, peak, slowly decent over the RPM.You can see it in the torque delivery, i tried a setup like this before, i wasnt a fan.
     
    #690 rsmith, Sep 22, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  11. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    running electronic control, and not mbc which is crude but effective in capping things, is whats allowing the progressive delivery of the boost. It has been a pain fo sho

    Its a hybrid.. and is clear that the compressor can flow more than the engine wants to take until sufficent rpms are on board. Wellys oversize charge pipework, and large fmic (matched by this one in size terms, and higher flowing than wellys) is one of the other external factors in the surge/cylinder filling.
    I would wonder how something like a SEM with its larger plenum would assist in getting the fill to happen sooner with more boost sooner. Larger plenum to fill may take a little of the surge sting away. Amble thoughts I have had.

    Is there any such thing as a normal boost delivery? This is more like BT delivery, for the same reasons (aside from uber quick low end which BT's dont have) - BT's can also suffer surge if you try and let rip before the engines ready for it.

    everyone has their own preferences to delivery.
    I think this is as good as you can get this spec of turbo, skirting along its surgeline, and maintaining a good top end boost which mbc's like forge unos seem incapable of achieving.
    what mbc are you using rob?
     
  12. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar FrankenTurbo

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    That's Welly while running the OEM S3 manifold?


    Was the hybrid turbo fitted during those tests on Revo? Was it a Stage 3 file or merely a Stage 2 chip?
     
  13. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    Wellys plots is XS Power mani not k04 mani

    Stage 1 file on this car (I think) - stock k04/manifold, smaller AH V1 fmic on it then, 3" TIP, 3" DP/miltek

    Now - 3" TIP on it, 3" DP and cat, miltek, AH V2 FMIC on it like tufftys/danes
     
  14. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    I am running with just a Forge MBC, NO N75 control, its set to 24psi and then winds itself down, to be honest i have not had any issues with the MBC.

    I still dont believe its how much the air the engine can consume at a given RPM, moreover an imbalance between the wheel and turbine.I can pull 170g/s at 3300rpm.

    You have a PM.
     
  15. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    24psi on this and it would surge before 4300rpm.
    MBC tapering down is what unos does. In this instance the turbo is not what tapers off, its the mbc's control wandering down. thats why I wanted n75 control to keep it going. It has done 29psi at 7500rpm during mapping.. No shortage of boost/flow when pressed. 9psi actuator on here, so not super stuiff like I had to run on mbc before hand thinking it was pressure blowing open which was the taper.. Its the MBC which tapers off not the turbo.

    thanks for info. :thumbup:
     
    #695 ibizacupra, Sep 22, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  16. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar FrankenTurbo

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    Is the mbc not a standard ball & spring type? Does it somehow fatigue over the course of a run and start to spill manifold pressure into the actuator can?
     
  17. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    My boost tapers down on either MBC or N75 control, the turbo can only do what the turbo can do at the end of the day.

    Is the WG ported, my V1 could do 1.7bar at redline also, but it was not welcomed.
     
  18. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    Std ball and spring yes.. and its function would seem to tail away yes

    ported yes. by not welcomed what do you mean? Your red line is not this redline tho from your logs. ~(lower)
    unported it will creep. This one runs 9psi actuator only pressure and creeps only 1.5psi across the rev range. Just about optimal I think on control vs creep - encourage the flow past the turbine
     
  19. rsmith

    rsmith Robbie

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    Cause it was boost creep, :lol:
     
  20. ibizacupra

    ibizacupra Jack-RIP my little Friend
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    ahhh.. lol
    I seez ya now...
    :D
     

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