Ibiza Cambelt change

[sol]

Hi,

My seat ibiza is over 5 years old now (64 plate). I have had the car since new and have just over 46,000 miles on the clock now.

A Seat garage recommended I get the cambelt and waterpump changed due to age of car (5 years).

They quoted me £671 I think, Im not exactly sure, but it was well over £600. Apparntly you only get waterpump with cambelt change deal with a diesel engine, mine is petrol.

I'm thinking wether to take it to a seat garage or an independent. I got quoted about half that price from an independent but I dont know if they'll used approved parts?? seat say they offer 5 year warranty on cambelt if anything goes wrong because of the cambelt but I dont know if that would apply to me.

What do you think?

thanks

 

[Crossthreaded]

what engine do you have?

 

[sol]

what engine do you have?

I have a 1.4 petrol engine. The seat ibiza Toca

 

[Crossthreaded]

Ok. 5 years is typically what many VW group vehicles have as a recommended time interval if you are not doing high mileages. So changing the belt now would be a good idea. In fact the belt on a car which does a lot of short and/or town journeys actually leads a much harder life than one which spends hours cruising down the motorway.

I think the 1.4 Toca has the "good old" 16 valve twin cam which has been around for a long time - so many mechanics will be familiar with it. It has one long timing belt which goes from the crank sprocket to the inlet cam sprocket and then a second, very short, belt which connects the inlet cam to the exhaust cam. If I remember correctly the water pump is in the front of the block and is driven by the long cam belt. With this type of setup (common to a lot of manufacturers) the water pump is directly involved in the cam drive train so if its bearing fails there's a good chance of the belt jumping teeth which could, if not caught quickly, result in terminal engine damage. For this reason, and because to change a water pump later means dismantling the belt drive again so will cost about the same as doing a belt in the first place, I would always change the pump on this type of setup at the same time as doing the belt. Complete kits are available from many sources and there are a number of first rate manufacturers. I personally like Gates, who have been in this game for as long as cars have used timing belts and I would go out of my way to buy that brand. I think this site stocks suitable kits https://www.mister-auto.co.uk/timin...ump/seat/ibiza/ibiza-v-6j5-6p1-1-4-85hp-2008/ (I've bought a number of kits from them for our family vehicles and found them very good) I would suggest you input your vehicle's reg no to be sure.

Typically I have paid around the £70 to £80 mark for kits for our cars Fiat Panda/Punto, a very old Seat Cordoba, Skoda Fabia and others. I think your kit is going to be a little more expensive because it has two belts and two tensioners.

Although a little more involved than doing one with just a single belt it doesn't look to be a "difficult" one to do so I would expect that almost any competent Indy would be able to do it - although I personally would seek out a VAG specialist Indy (up here in Edinburgh that would be AVW for me).

£670 seems really excessive to me about half that would be reasonable I would think.

By the way, I've never owned a vehicle with this engine in it but I seem to remember it being one of the engines on which you must not slacken the main bearing bolts as the bottom end of the crankcase distorts so much the crank gets trapped and the engine can't then be used. Right? or am I hallucinating again?

 

[RUM4MO]

I think that your best plan would be to book it in to a good local VAG Indie as they normally use genuine parts and might, with acquired experience replace a few other parts that can cause trouble, I agree with changing the water pump as well, VAG used to supply refurbished pumps which saves a small bit of cash - it all adds up.

I've paid for a couple of cambelt changes on an earlier version of that engine plus one cambelt change on that later version, all at VAG Indies, and my daughter paid for a cambelt change a year or so ago at a local Indie (AVW) and it was a lot less than £670, maybe £385ish.

Edit:- good plan to get it replaced though and all the associated bits at this period.

 

[Crossthreaded]

A wee Ps to my above post.

Changing the water pump at this time (ie. after 5 years) offers the opportunity to completely drain and refill the cooling system at the same time. This is particularly convenient as modern OAT based anti-freezes have a recommended life span of 5 years. So you are "killing 3 birds with the one stone"!

 

[sol]

Ok. 5 years is typically what many VW group vehicles have as a recommended time interval if you are not doing high mileages. So changing the belt now would be a good idea. In fact the belt on a car which does a lot of short and/or town journeys actually leads a much harder life than one which spends hours cruising down the motorway.

I think the 1.4 Toca has the "good old" 16 valve twin cam which has been around for a long time - so many mechanics will be familiar with it. It has one long timing belt which goes from the crank sprocket to the inlet cam sprocket and then a second, very short, belt which connects the inlet cam to the exhaust cam. If I remember correctly the water pump is in the front of the block and is driven by the long cam belt. With this type of setup (common to a lot of manufacturers) the water pump is directly involved in the cam drive train so if its bearing fails there's a good chance of the belt jumping teeth which could, if not caught quickly, result in terminal engine damage. For this reason, and because to change a water pump later means dismantling the belt drive again so will cost about the same as doing a belt in the first place, I would always change the pump on this type of setup at the same time as doing the belt. Complete kits are available from many sources and there are a number of first rate manufacturers. I personally like Gates, who have been in this game for as long as cars have used timing belts and I would go out of my way to buy that brand. I think this site stocks suitable kits https://www.mister-auto.co.uk/timin...ump/seat/ibiza/ibiza-v-6j5-6p1-1-4-85hp-2008/ (I've bought a number of kits from them for our family vehicles and found them very good) I would suggest you input your vehicle's reg no to be sure.

Typically I have paid around the £70 to £80 mark for kits for our cars Fiat Panda/Punto, a very old Seat Cordoba, Skoda Fabia and others. I think your kit is going to be a little more expensive because it has two belts and two tensioners.

Although a little more involved than doing one with just a single belt it doesn't look to be a "difficult" one to do so I would expect that almost any competent Indy would be able to do it - although I personally would seek out a VAG specialist Indy (up here in Edinburgh that would be AVW for me).

£670 seems really excessive to me about half that would be reasonable I would think.

By the way, I've never owned a vehicle with this engine in it but I seem to remember it being one of the engines on which you must not slacken the main bearing bolts as the bottom end of the crankcase distorts so much the crank gets trapped and the engine can't then be used. Right? or am I hallucinating again?

Thanks for replying Crossthreaded & RUM4MO....

So have you bought your cambelts separately and then have an independent garage fit them?

Im not too familiar with the technical side of engine mechanics but I know mine's not the TSI engine. I would look to change my water pump at the same time as my Cambelt.

I have actually been to a different Seat dealership/Garage now and they quoted me less than the last seat garage to replace my cambelt and water pump, which is odd as theyre all meant to be the same price.
They quoted £475.06 now to replace cambelt and waterpump for Non-Tsi engine, VAT and labour.

But they also offered just to check my current Cambelt condition for free so I asked them to check it.

They said the current Cambelt is fine but just to check it at my next service.

After they told me my cambelt was fine, before leaving I asked them about my auxillary belt and so they looked at this and they said it is showing some slight fraying and wear and to check in a couple of months. I thought if my cambelt was fine then my aux belt would be as I thought they were meant to last longer??

Anyway, I havent booked to change cambelt or water pump but Im having aux belt changed. Thats costing £99. I havent been able to check if thats a decent price or not yet but I just wanted to get it done.

 

[Crossthreaded]

Thanks for replying Crossthreaded & RUM4MO....

So have you bought your cambelts separately and then have an independent garage fit them?

Im not too familiar with the technical side of engine mechanics but I know mine's not the TSI engine. I would look to change my water pump at the same time as my Cambelt.

I have actually been to a different Seat dealership/Garage now and they quoted me less than the last seat garage to replace my cambelt and water pump, which is odd as theyre all meant to be the same price.
They quoted £475.06 now to replace cambelt and waterpump for Non-Tsi engine, VAT and labour.

But they also offered just to check my current Cambelt condition for free so I asked them to check it.

They said the current Cambelt is fine but just to check it at my next service.

After they told me my cambelt was fine, before leaving I asked them about my auxillary belt and so they looked at this and they said it is showing some slight fraying and wear and to check in a couple of months. I thought if my cambelt was fine then my aux belt would be as I thought they were meant to last longer??

Anyway, I havent booked to change cambelt or water pump but Im having aux belt changed. Thats costing £99. I havent been able to check if thats a decent price or not yet but I just wanted to get it done.

Hi sol, You've given me a few things to consider here, I'll try to do my best.

I'm a retired motor mechanic so yes, up till now I've bought my own belt kits (I'm very keen on the Gates brand) and fitted them myself. At 73 years young I'm now finding this harder to do and I've decided I'll begetting the lads at AVW here in Edinburgh to do the one on my '16 Ibiza 3cylinder TSI next year. I've bought the kits both on line and from motor trade factors and never had any problems - big cost savings to be made.

Yes, in my opinion, you should change the water pump at the same time as the timing belt on any engine where the pump is part of the valve gear drive train. Complete kits with all parts needed are common.

Getting the job done at a main agent should ensure that high quality genuine parts are used and the job will, likely, be done by a man who spends all his days working on these motors so will "know his stuff". Downside is you'll pay plenty for this peace of mind. Personally I'd be looking for a VAG independent specialist where you will most likely find VAG trained staff but much more reasonable prices.

My local main agent is very keen on "checking" the cam belt. I asked them at it's last service before it's warranty expired as to when the timing belt should be changed. The reply was "it's a for life component" REALLY? "Yes sir, we will check it when servicing and advise if a change is needed". Now, if I was going to continue to have it main dealer serviced, this would make me very nervous indeed. - to be fair to them I do remember reading that this belt on my engine should be a for life fitment when I was researching the car before purchase - I've dealt with hundreds of cam belts over the years and different engines/manufacturers recommend different service lives for belts. Having seen a number of failed belts and the often eye watering cost of sorting the aftermath out I would always change a belt before the recommended maximum limit is reached. In my experience visually inspecting a belt is unlikely to catch one about to fail with any certainty. These synchronous belts (as they are called) tend to look absolutely "fine" almost right up until they fail. You will be very lucky to take a belt guard off and be able to say some thing like "Yes, by the looks of it that belt will be OK for the next 5,000 miles but will need to be changed in about 6 months from now" They either look absolutely fine or you are taking the guards off because someone didn't get it changed when they should have and it's all gone BANG!

Very wise of you to be replacing your worn aux belt. If your Aux belt (we used to call them fan belts but now the fans are all electric - sigh) is looking a bit ropey you should get it changed because sometimes when they break they will wrap themselves round the crank shaft pulley and flail the belt covers to pieces. It's also not unknown for them to get jammed in behind the crankshaft pulley and ruin the front oil seal. If you're very unlucky, having demolished the timing belt covers, it just might get under the bottom crankshaft sprocket and dislodge the timing belt in which case it's Bye Bye engine. I always renew the aux belt when doing a timing belt. I would guess a multi V belt would come in around the £10 mark to buy from the local factor and as most big workshops have minimum time charges (some 1/2 hour but increasingly an hour) you £99 all in charge is probably to be expected. One of those relatively simple jobs where you can save a fortune doing it yourself if you have the confidence, some tools and, perhaps, a Haynes manual?

You mention that you thought an aux belt would outlast a cam (timing) belt? I would say not necessarily so. The cam belt runs enclosed behind substantial covers so is well protected from the elements and road detritus (grit etc). Aux belts, in the main, run fully exposed so it depends on the environment it's run in as to how it will last.

I've been going on a bit now so think I'll pause here. If there's anything else you think I might be able to help with please do just ask away.

 

[RUM4MO]

@sol if I was in your position, ie not very clued up on engines type stuff, I'd take "the hit" money wise and get that cambelt water pump and aux belt replaced - which will include coolant as well.

You might get off with not changing it for maybe another 1,2,3,4 --------ect years - or you might not stay lucky.

The only thing that annoyed me once when handing a car in with an earlier model of that engine was, the VAG Indie also replaced the auxiliary belt - that was the way they worked at that point in time when working on these engines, experience probably proved that missing that out because the customer did not want or did not ask for it to be changed had lead to very annoyed customers bad mouthing his business when the aux belt eventually failed - and I didn't blame his for doing that, it was just that I had replaced it a year earlier as it was then 8 years old (he did not change it first time round).

Also, the first time that I used that VAG Indie to replace the cambelt + water pump on that 2002 VW Polo at 4 years old (that used to be the recommended change period with the earlier engines until they started leaving out one of the relay rollers), I supplied what I believed to be all the required parts bought from my local VW main dealership, though he added a single roller that VW Group do/did not include in their kit. He left all the removed parts in a box in the boot and commented that all the removed parts were still in good condition - he did not in anyway mean to imply that this change of bits was not necessary - it was only given as a comment when I asked the question.

Just in case you are not aware, a failing auxiliary belt can do a lot more than just stop the alternator + power steering + AC compressor running, which might be an inconvenience - if/when parts of it start whipping around it can cause quite a lot of extra damage especially to a modern engine with a flimsy plastic cam belt cover. So people will be lucky and just suffer a lost/broken belt - but some people will end up with far more trouble.

 

[Scotty76]

So will a February 2016 '65 plate 1.2 TSI have a cambelt? I was unsure whether it was belt or chain.

 

[Crossthreaded]

So will a February 2016 '65 plate 1.2 TSI have a cambelt? I was unsure whether it was belt or chain.

I think if your turbo is in front of the engine it's a chain and if it's tucked down the back, like mine, it's a belt? The EA211 is a belt - or at least my 1.0 litre 95hp is!

 

[RUM4MO]

As above, but make sure that you check that the turbo is at the back of the engine as SEAT might have still had a few unsold Ibizas left for sale by that time with the older engine.

 

[ric04vrs]

Apparently it’s a very easy cam belt change to do, locking pins required though,
The local VAG specialist near me quoted £350 to do it, my mate did it for me for £60 inc water pump change, I supplied the genuine parts from TPS

 

[Crossthreaded]

Apparently it’s a very easy cam belt change to do, locking pins required though,
The local VAG specialist near me quoted £350 to do it, my mate did it for me for £60 inc water pump change, I supplied the genuine parts from TPS

Would I be right in thinking you're referring to the "old" engine in the Toca? The EA211 is a bit if a different kettle of fish I think from what the Haynes manual shows me - not horrendous though. I think a competent "experienced DIYer" could make a good job of it but it's not for "beginners"

Interestingly I was looking at the tool kits offered on line and came across the Laser offering. There seems to be a warning in it's instructions about the version of this engine that does the cutting out of 2 cylinders trick (can't remember what they call it) in that the tool, if tightened up too much - they recommend finger tight only - can displace something in this mechanism which then causes a problem?

 

[Crossthreaded]

Here's a good video I came across showing how to do it:

Here's another which is a bit more informative about how to access the belt when the motor is still in the car:

Enjoy!