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Discussion in 'Readers Rides (SEAT)' started by Willie, Jun 30, 2008.
ill have to try and come along to the next meet then....see the comparison between the LCR and the S3
Where you impressed with "local guru" then? ive only ever heard good things.
Comparisons are more than welcome
Dave is some machine, nothing but praise for him, his time and effort.
If the S3 isn't mapped go directly to him, no one else
the pump, like all pumps like these will have a fuel delivery vs pressure type curve..
with greater pressure some less flow, and input voltage is very key to their fuel delivery
On new pumps, they can indeed do 4bar (off boost) fuel pressure.. but these cars are getting old, and the fuel pumps delivery falls away from what I have seen. the pressure control is not done by the pump on 1.8t but by the fuel rails pressure regulator, and it does it by bypassing flow to return.
Remember if you run 1.6bar boost, your pump will have to be flow 5.6bar of fuel pressure and 20+ms of injector duty cycle from the 370cc injectors.. when the pumps cannot sustain the 5.6bar pressure the fuel flow will drop away, and lean conditions can occur. (melty melty)
to me, fitting an aux inline pump which handles the main fuel delivery will always be a better option for ensured increased fuel flow, and cheaper than buying an OE pump, and certainly easier than fitting an in-tank pump.
typical pump delivery curve vs pressure
Just be careful of loading up a fuel pump with higher pressure regulator in case the pump is tired or getting tired.
The S3 has a revo on it....Dave was going to Vagcom it for me to double check this...but i think i have got a foobered fuel pump, so she is tucked away until i have some spare cash after my hols in August Buying a flat is expensive lol..
Fuelings all tickety boo just now. I'm in good hands too with the mapping
Glad your happy with your re-map willie.
Car looked good on saturday too. Can fairly shift !
Just a shame you couldn't make crail on sunday. Was an ace day .
With the exhaust on it was time to log the car prior to mapping.
I've always had a close eye on fault codes and fueling as Al has a VAG com cable which is a massive help.
There's never been any worrying fault codes so I wasn't too worried.
I've always been very sympathetic to the mechanical side of the car with proper warming up and cooling down cycles with good oils and fuel.
When logging the car there was a VVT fault that came up. I've had an oil leak from this sensor for a few years which is getting worse. I believe that I need to remove the cam cover and disconnect this sensor from the inlet cam. This is on the list of things to get done this winter along with the timing belts, pulleys and oil pump.
This fault was cleared, everything else was well.
When logging the car initially we used a straight piece of road that is approx 1/3 to 1/2 mile long.
As usual, short shifted up to 4th, let revs drop to 1,200 RPM's and bury the throttle. Due to the car being OEM and 104,000 miles 7 years old this took a while and we were almost at the end of the straight before reaching 6,500 RPM's.
On looking closely at the logs all was well. Fueling good with the OEM 3 BAR FPR, AIT 6 degrees above ambient and MAF reading showing 160 g/s (approx 200 BHP). tis showed that the 1,200 RPM to 6,500 RPM sprint took 21 seconds.
There was no issues either with copying the map, as Dave has head with others cars, the benefit of owning a car from new for me
Due to this being a true custom map it only took a short period of time to get a map written, not as quick as a generic up load, but we all know these are not all that.
Next up with the new map written the 3 BAR FPR was removed and a 4 BAR one fitted, the standard green spring was left in the 007P DV but with all the other springs and spacers at hand, the Sprint booster was removed then the OEM map was removed from the car.
With the new map uploaded, which took a couple of minutes due to the 1Mb ECU the car was switched on. Straight away you could her the additional split second for priming the 4 BAR FPR over the 3 BAR one. The car was started, not that I was surprised by this but its always a good start, lol
As soon as I drove the you could tell there was a difference. The car felt ALOT smoother, not that it felt rough before, well I din't think it did anyway. also the turbo sounded better/smoother/happier too.
Back to our 1/3 mile straight, same script as before.
This time it was very obvious there was more power/torque.
The distance travelled was less than before to red line and the pull was very nice.
Logging done these were checked over. All was very confidence inspiring, cooling, fueling and timing all good. Little or no correction factors. The 1,200 to 6,500 RPM's sprint took 19 seconds, much better
All happy, time to drive it.
When fitting the new DP this was done with the normal exhaust paste only on the de CAT to back box connection. This has been blowing and needs to get sorted. I don't think its hampering the handling or really the performance but is a little loud and will need to get sorted out. Speaking to John at Awesome I'm advised to use high temperature silicon sealant.
The car feels properly rapid now, especially when higher up in the revs 3,500 RPM's +.
when overtaking its a bit mental and frantic compared to the sedate feeling OEM map.
Its definitely a different car now. Up till now the handling has far out weighed the power in a massive way.
The car does feel a bit surgy, looking at the logs you could see the quick spool of the turbo and see it meeting request then dropping back to follow the requested, as much as the turbo could give. I got used to this low down, further up the rev range it was all smooth fast spool and quick progress.
Compared to the OEM car there's no comparison FULL STOP!!
Having friends with fast cars is exactly what you need with a newly mapped car.
I find it very difficult to tell how much faster the car is.
Having done some previous 'testing' with friends in there MK2 LC's this would be a good bench mark. Before it was night and day between the cars, as soon as my mate could get traction he was gone.
Now its very different. Due the my cars set up (diff, R888's, engine mounts and stiff coilovers) and the way the power is applied through the map traction isn't an issue. Up to 60 its very even, when going a little faster its was more obvious that there is 100 BHP difference between the cars.
After some rigrous testing the same pattern was followed. Against a 420 BHP BT one to 80 it was very even. Against a 370 BHP OEM turbo'd one there was more of a difference after 60, but not much, after 80 there very different cars and the game is well and truly over.
With the logs looked at closely there was room for improvement in the map.
REV 2 ready
After getting through 3 tanks of fuel, pretty quickly lol, it as time for the new map.
When driving the car one day it gave a bit of a cough, initially thinking this was a coil pack. I've always had 4 spare as these are the OEM ones, yup believe it or not mine have lasted 104,000 miles. With VAG com we proved it was cylinder ones one. Within a few days another one went so all 4 were eventually changed out. The old ones were 'L's the new ones are 'R's so quite a big time between the two sets and hopefully these will last another 104,000 miles.
As the plugs were done about 10,000 miles ago I thought I'd treat the car to new ones. NGK platinum R's were bought for £40 and these were fitted too. This should all help the engine handling the new power better.
I got the chance to use a friends dads ramp again, cheers Owen. The original exhaust paste was removed and the high temperature silicon was applied and joint fitted. This was left to cure then heat cycled and drive to prove as is well.
Car was logged in the same way as before, due to the hot ambient temps, 20 degrees +, the car is dumping fuel to cool things down.
On logging the car was still all well, only fault codes for the coil packs popping, fueling is still good and little or no correction factors.
Time for rev 2.
Yet again, car started with no issues.
On driving to the straight it sounded even more smooth, like a finely tuned machine.
BUT, on logging this time it was very different. The 6,500 red line came up very quickly.
Almost have way down the straight this time!!
On driving back to check over the logs the car feels very eager to rev, much much smoother than the first map. The car now pulls harder lower down the rev range. Before it was 3,500 before it was pulling hard, now its more like 2,500.
On speaking to the mapper the first map was a sort of tester to see how the car would handle things.
On looking at the requested v's actual its obvious why this is so much smoother.
at approx 2,500 the maps requesting 2560mBAR and now meeting this from 3,000 to 4,500 RPM's and holding 1.2 BAR from there to red line which is pretty good for a 104,000 mile OEM KO4.
Also the 1,200 to 6,500 RPM is now taking 15 seconds. The car was fast before but now its so smooth it doesn't 'feel' as fast but the figure prove it all. 6 seconds quicker than the OEM map to red line and 4 seconds faster than the first map.
No its time to get the ECU to adapt and see how things sit after than. I'm not too sure if There can be more extracted from my set up, traction doesn't seem too much of an issue yet either. Rigorous testing to follow
For anyone thinking about going the custom map route there is nothing bad I can say about it. Is this any better than a generic stage 2 loaded up to your car that was written for someone elses car???
Of course it is.
The amount I have learned from this mapper is massive. I've always been more handling than engine modification biased. Now I have a higher understanding of what's going on.
Next mods on the list are oil cooler, DS3000 front pads and boost gauge.
As I've seen engine cooling is directly proportional to power. If it gets too hot it dumps fuel to cool things down so the need for the oil cooler.
Due to the new maps I've been told I'll be able to get t most out of my new power with a boost gauge. This will allow me to drive on boost.
The DS3000's are going to be used due to my intrigue on how good the braking will get with them. The DS2500's are good so have high hopes for the DS3000's
Good write up Willie, glad you finally got it mapped
I assume you have a FMIC. without having to read through the whole post again?
Yup I've got the LCR Forge FMIC with hoses.
Full spec on post 3, away to update this
yeah sorry was monday morning laziness
Was just the fact you were saying it was getting hot at times.
Do you think the map might be working too hard if temps are getting up? As i'd imagine on the track the temps would be far higher than you could ever achieve on the road?
what about water/meth to bring the temps down as well?
Good stuff min. Will be interesting to see how it goes
Temperatures more to do with the engine than the boost.
I've got the standard twin fan issue, this teamed with very high track running temperatures makes for a dangerous combination.
A thermostatic sandwich plate and oil cooler will sort things out.
The engine will be running hotter due to mapping
The jurys still out for me on the WMI TBH, Owens sprayer is very good and very cold but not too sure about how best to set this up and get the best out of this without running issues if you run out of WMI
I've spoken to my mapper about this and will see what he comes back with.
Cheers Al, will be interesting one the ECU has adapted as she's a fair bit quicker
for ststained track use, WMI will be very usefull... it will be your choice if you choose to explore more timing form it, or just use it to keep temps under control when bashing round the track sessions
some nice progress there willy
That's my initial thoughts TBH.
Advancing timing is fair enough but what happens when you've got a car running low CF's and timing advance and you run out of WMI or summat happens with it??
WMI for track use purely for cooling, perhaps some timing adavnce for 1/4 mile and short sprints on the track.
Before going this route I'd have a AFR gauge to ensure things are going well 100% of the time too
I think thats a good plan Willie. Nice and cool for the track giving you nice safe consistant laps and for the 1/4's etc you can advance the timing to get the headline figures. And you know that the worst that happened is you've done 1/4 mile with it not running which wont be too bad. And you'll see the heat ramp up so you'll notice straight away something aint right.
Then you pull back the timing if you want to continue with the runs. Bish bash bosh!
So Willie, what g/s can you achieve now after remap?