1. Hi Guest. Booking is now open for our national meet on Sunday 14th July - all SEATs and CUPRAs welcome - we'd love to see you there. - Find out more here
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Hi Guest, stickers are now available from our online store.

Oversized TIP Questions

Discussion in 'Leon Mk1' started by SlashProm, May 16, 2019 at 10:42 AM.

  1. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    Hi guys, I'm preparing my car for stage 2 and I want to do it properly so I can get the maximum out of the remap.

    I plan to install a full exhaust system, 3" decat to 2.5" from the decat back.
    FMIC, A decent welly cooler with 2.5" piping, not the cheap ebay kits.

    I uprated to a silicone tip off ebay and I can see that it's a lot less restrictive than the standard tip with the metal flattened section that goes to the turbo.

    Anyway I'm hearing about oversized tip's and how they claim a 12 BHP over stock and the one I have apparently doesn't flow any better than the restrictive standard one?

    I don't understand how you get 12 BHP from a slightly bigger pipe when it's only the inlet side of the turbo anyway.

    Does this mean I'd get say 252 BHP on a stage 2 rather than 240 or so without the oversized tip? Or are these gains something you get when you go k03s hybrid and shoot for 300 bhp?
     
  2. Connorg115

    Connorg115 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    62
    When companies make claims like 12hp over stock it doesn't necessarily mean peak power, Could be 12hp at 4000rpm

    The tip works on the same principle as a bigger exhaust, more in, more out

    If you're going upgrade the exhaust why wouldn't you upgrade the intake?

    also these over sized tips arent slightly bigger, they are enormous compared to the standard inlet pipes
     

    Attached Files:

  3. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I get it's bigger I just meant that the turbo impeller is sucking in air, and I find it hard to believe that it struggles to flow up to 250 bhp. I can understand that from the old restrictive stock ones, and I can understand that when the turbo is at full boost and stage 2 it doesn't want restriction, but the oversized tips are the same size at the turbo inlet and maf side so I don't see how it could make much difference, unless your trying to max out the turbo at like 270+ bhp

    Example: If the straw is smaller than your mouth it's a restriction to suck in air, if it's the same size there is no restriction, if you had a straw that was fatter in the middle but the same size as your mouth where you suck from, would you suck in more air?
     
  4. Connorg115

    Connorg115 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    62
    I get what you mean with your example must be magic then :bleh:

    If the tip is increased then you're basically giving yourself a bigger straw, the maf is the same size but on the oem setup the maf isnt the restrictive part

    I'm sure someone will be along soon with a better explanation
     
  5. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I welcome any advice, like i said I want the most out of the car when I get it mapped.
    If bigger really is better though, does that mean anything less than a Badger5 80mm Oversized with the LCR Maf Housing is less than optimal? and it says the Badger5 80mm is for the LCR? does it still fit the AUQ LC the same? I don't want to spend £100-£130 on a TIP and have someone say "you'd have got even more with the 80mm" But like you said the MAF isn't the restriction.

    Makes me think what is then? the middle section of the tip up to the bend on the turbo inlet? the turbo inlet its self? the maf becomes the restriction when going oversized? it's all so confusing.
     
  6. Connorg115

    Connorg115 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    62
    If you can find a tip the same size as the badger 5 then yeah it would be identical (performance wise)

    As for the LC tip im not sure because the cupra rs have different turbos LCs = K03 LCR = K04 wether that means different compressor size of actual housing im not sure!

    You're always going to have restrictions eventually, once you've increased the tip size and flowing maximum air through it you will max out the turbo for example

    If i was you and wanting the maximum outta your car speak to @Sparkie , his car is running amazingly and is about maxed out on the stock turbo setup/ rods
     
  7. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I've done a lot of research and from what I can tell the creation motorsports one made for the 3" maf housing from an lcr is pretty much the same as the badger5 made for the k04. Badger5 looks slightly bigger but is for a k04.

    I've noticed that these 3" maf's and oversized tips are getting an extra 12 bhp but that seems to be with k03s Hybrids and maxing the thing to 300 BHP. I wanted to find out at what point does a standard silicone tip become a restrictrion. 250 BHP 270 BHP or is it always a restriction. It seems that the bigger the better, and I don't mind buying a chinese 3" MAF as I can just stick my sensor into the housing and job done :)

    I'm aiming for 250-260 Bhp which is about maxed out for the standard k03s. And the turbo its self is the restriction here so don't think a bigger tip would matter. Or at least that's my theory.
     
  8. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
  9. Mamic172

    Mamic172 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    29
    If your gonna do 1 bit your best of doing the other bit too. Then you need to let the gases escape quicker so a bigger down pipe and system will be needed. Every thing you do will push to the limit of another part. So bit by bit work threw the system then at the end you will have gain all the bhp possible with the set up you got. Then it's bigger upgrades then. Say like a bigger turbo.
    But by doing this you will then be back to pushing the limits of what you already run.
    So best idea is to figure out what you wanna make bhp wise then build according to that spec you want.
     
  10. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I'm just trying to figure out if it's needed though. I've been told by a few people, and also on r-tech guide that a standard k03s runs out of puff at around 240 BHP and becomes a heat pump. So is there any point in an oversized tip if I've already maxed out the turbo? I can understand that when you go k04 or k03s hybrid that a bigger tip will allow more flow, but you need more flow because the internals of the turbo are bigger.

    I realise that more flow into the turbo means more boost out of the turbo, but surely there is a point when the standard tip becomes a restriction. Which means if I'm not reaching that point it's kind of pointless, like fitting bigger injectors when you haven't even maxed out your old ones.
     
  11. Mamic172

    Mamic172 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    29
    Personally. For the price I would fit one. Don't wanna do all the work and it's not right also your tip is at least 14 years old so the rubber could be perishing. It can't hurt fitting one. Evening if it's not an over sized.
     
  12. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I've already fitted a silicone tip, cost me like £60, which is why I don't want to spend another £110-£130 on something that probably wont even make a difference, other than R-Tech said it gives another 10 BHP, when this is probably on a maxed out 300 BHP K03s Hybrid, which is a bigger turbo that probably needs the bigger tip.

    I mean people have mapped these cars for a long time now but an "oversized tip" is a relatively new thing, surely someone somewhere knows if it makes any difference, or is even needed for a stage 2 on a standard k03s, but why would say R-tech give that up when they sell these items? Lol.
     
    #12 SlashProm, May 17, 2019 at 6:51 PM
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 6:57 PM
  13. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions but I'm sure the information is out there, there must have been a point, when people were tuning these cars and realised the point that the forge tips were a restriction and an oversized one would be required. I'm trying to find out one way or another either:

    The "forge" tip became a restriction when pushing power out of the standard k03s and made more power here.
    The "forge tip" was needed when running k03s hybrid/k04 and made more power here.
    An oversized tip made more power here, on a stock k03s without a tune, with a stage 1 tune and these mods, and so on.

    I'm sure a lot of R&D was done when developing the oversized tip and where it would be effective.
     
  14. Mamic172

    Mamic172 Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    29
    The beat person to answer this I would say is bill from badger 5. He would know the limits of products and when they need changing
     
  15. Leon20vt4

    Leon20vt4 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    97
    If you're trying to max out the k03s you need 100% the best flow in and out. End of story.

    There are a few tips here and there to help.

    I talked to bill and he said when you want to max the k03s porting the exhaust manifold and also the turbo with a hand dremel makes better flow... so the problem with these turbos is they run out of puff you create more puff by increasing airflow and air density.

    SFS makes a 70mm oversized tip for our cars

    Badger 5 80mm wont fit only for LCR

    CC makes an 80mm that will fit our cars

    If you go 80mm MAF it'll have to be tuned in by the tuner. It wont just work plug and play.

    I'll post my technical thread of my leon in here, plenty parts in there pertaining to maxing out k03s.
     
  16. Leon20vt4

    Leon20vt4 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    97
    Quoted directly from Bill at Badger 5 from my email

    "12psi actuator will help getting besty from k03s, as will porting of its hotside and exhaust manifold along with all the other stage 2 mods required..
    386cc injectors from K04 cars, 80mm MAF, Oversized TIP & filter etc"
     
  17. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    That's what I mean this is all in reference to maxing out a k03s, porting, hybrid cores and dremmels, 3" maf's, I'm asking if it's needed on a stage 2. I'm not trying to max the thing out at 300 bhp, I'm asking if it's going to be needed on a standard 240-250 stage 2 from r-tech.

    I understand the basics, more flow = more power.
    But is the turbo really sucking the inlet that hard at stage 2 that the tip becomes a restriction? Or does it become a restriction when pushing past say "280"

    It's like how people say that the intake manifold will flow up to 300 bhp just fine, but people port them anyway and say "I made this much extra flow at this power"
     
  18. Leon20vt4

    Leon20vt4 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2018
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    97
    I understand what you're getting at.

    So we are clear max on a k03s is 265hp maybe 270 with porting. That's not the same as hybrid.

    If you want the most power at "stage 2" through a custom Map. Then get the oversized tip.

    You're asking your question no offense in regards to stages when you should be asking in regards to your end power goals.

    To achieve 250hp from the k03s I would do every "stage 2 upgrade" possible, including an oversized tip and MAF.

    Dont port the exhaust

    Dont port the turbo

    Dont go hybrid

    But do everything else right the first time and you can hit 250hp it's not so easy with a k03s most "stage 2 guys hit 230hp" and the ones who have the best flowing setup with the best tune will hit the 250-265 window.

    My 2 cents or pents. I'm in the same boat as you bro, just do it right and go bigger tip and maf if you're planning custom tuning. If you're just chip tuning stage 2 then stick with what you got.
     
  19. SlashProm

    SlashProm Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    8
    I'm trying to find out if it's needed that's all, like you said 230 or so bhp on stage 2, a more "free flowing setup" which is about all the info you get and you get more like 250 bhp, but I've done a lot of research and my 2.75" maf will flow fine up to 300 bhp, so no need for a maf, everyone used to say 4 bar fpr is needed for stage 2, since then people have realised that a 3" maf and 4 bar fpr aren't needed on a k03s, as well as lcr injectors aren't needed. Makes me think an oversized tip wont be needed at this power level either.

    I get what your saying, go bigger and you'll get better results.
    But what if my silicone tip is good enough to flow say 270 BHP, and wont give any performance gains going oversized as the one I have wasn't becoming a restriction at this level of tune?

    That's a waste of £135 right there.

    As far as I was concerned, free flowing is a decent 3" decat/200 cell sports cat, 2.5" the rest, healthy dv and a proper front mount with free flowing 2.5" piping, to me a bigger tip that has the same outlet and inlet size isn't going to do much, especially when it's on the inlet side of the turbo, pre boost.
     

Share This Page