Revo map for NEW Mk2 Leon Cupra

[warren_cox]

So we're now needing a fuel pump and a DV. The list grows.

Never heard of a high performance car with a remap needing a new fuel pump before.

Well done VAG!

 

[Tam]

So we're now needing a fuel pump and a DV. The list grows.

Never heard of a high performance car with a remap needing a new fuel pump before.

Well done VAG!

Its one way to just stop people remapping their cars, then claiming clutches or whatever under warranty at least this way VAG know that you've been playing with it

Not to mention the additional costs will put some of doing it.

Insurance compaines will also know that its been mapped if they check the pump, hence you'll have to declare it to them (of course everyone does anyway! )

 

[DanGB]

Here is some info from a poster on VWvortex concerning fuel cutouts.... I will look to add a higher flowing fuel pump when they become available.....

==================================================
See if I understand this correctly, and see what you guys think about my info...

Most fuel cuts are occuring in 5th and 6th gear during top-end pulls, no?

Perhaps the occasional 4th gear cut?

And often in cold weather when the air is denser and more fuel is required?

Except now people are seeing it in warm weather as well, correct?

What I am being told is...according to Keith and Chris at APR...the fuel cut issue is directly related to the fuel pump on the 2.0FSI. Nothing else.

The stock fuel rail, lines, and injectors are more than up to the task of supporting 300bhp, and even the pump itself does OK with our heavily boosted/chipped motors until higher vehicle speeds are reached, after which time the increased acceleration/engine load required to CONTINUE accelerating the car necessitates a stronger delivery of fuel that the OE pump simply cannot provide, usually from about 4500rpm on up, and again, in 5th and 6th gears.

That is how it has been best explained to me, and it makes sense, particulary since we know how the pump is still driven off the camshaft and engine speeds (RPM) relative to engine loads will produce such an effect.

What I can actually vouch for is...I see all of my cuts consistently at 5k in 5th gear pulls, but I can negate them if I do not go all out WOT in top gears and use only 80% throttle.
===================================

Isnt this referring to the 197hp engines though.. BWA etc.

Anyway, iIwould take stuff said from VWvortex with a pinch of salt. Ive been following that forum for the past year and its amazing the amount of tripe that comes out of there. Bear in mind 99% of people on there are from America.

 

[BIGAR]

Its one way to just stop people remapping their cars, then claiming clutches or whatever under warranty at least this way VAG know that you've been playing with it

Not to mention the additional costs will put some of doing it.

Insurance compaines will also know that its been mapped if they check the pump, hence you'll have to declare it to them (of course everyone does anyway! )

UMMMMMM ? Possible ! but not sure on that.
Insurance compaines only tend to have a good look at your car if it is a complete right off or if they have good reson to like modded engine bay etc.

 

[warren_cox]

To be honest, whatever the situation its PIA. Revo were seeing error codes on my car early on in the day in cases where we were accelerating from 30mph in 5th gear up a hill from 2000rpm to 5500rpm (on a warm day), as the fuel just wasn't getting delivered in the quantities required. Can't remember what the error code was, so the map had to be modified to get round the issue.

The S3 was coping well with inlet temps (generally 28-30 degrees, but occasionally rising to early 30's when backing off from pushing it).

 

[Demon G]

COXW, clear some space for a pm....

 

[warren_cox]

COXW, clear some space for a pm....

Hi mate, now done, sorry

 

[sportbilly]

Interesting reading on the subject ...


Well, here's the situation with FSI's and recalibrations.

Typically, VAG turbo engines, 1.8T, 2.7T etc. have plenty of fuel available to realize the full potential of the oem turbocharger. This is not the case with the 2.0T FSI.

The FSI uses a rail pump in addition to the intank pump to deliver fuel AND pressure to the fuel rail. This rail pump is cam driven and moves a piston up and down to force the fuel into the rail. Deisel engines have been using this method of fuel delivery for many years. The rail pump generates pressure behind the fuel injectors and when the ecu tells the injectors to pulse or open to inject fuel into the combustion chamber a small amount of pressue and fuel is lost from the rail and the rail pump must then force more fuel into the rail to bring the fuel volume and pressure back up to spec. Simple.

Basically, because the rail pump is driven by the cam shaft, the rate at which the rail pump is able to rebuild pressure and volume in the rail is determined by how fast the cam shaft is spinning or forcing the piston in the rail pump up and down. So the limitation in fueling for the FSI is greater at lower rpm's and in the midrange than in the higher rpm range where the cam shaft is spinning faster.

Now you could say, well at higher rpm you are also using more fuel so why isn't the problem occurring there as well? The answer is because the rate at which the fuel pump delivers fuel increases beyond the engine's ability to consume fuel with the oem turbo at higher rpm's. Basically, the turbo provides too much power in the low and mid range than in the upper range as matched to the rail pump. The turbo runs out of breath still in the higher rpm's so fuel demand is less. Peak hp numbers are made up top as a product of torque over time where the rpm's are greater. More rpm's, more torque over time accumatively, less immediate demand on the fuel delivery.

In the low and midrange, the fuel demand is all in torque or immediate requirement over less time. The rail pump simply can't get to a great enough speed to deliver the fuel that is demanded at peak torque rpm's. This is a very brief and momentary demand in relation to a sustained continual demand that hp requires in the high rpm's.

So what happens is when the ecu is calling for more fuel pressure a very temporary situation can occur where the pump is not spinning fast enough to provide the requested fuel pressure in the low and mid rpm's. This results in the ecu enabling a safety feature that cuts spark and fuel temporarily to allow the pressure in the rail to build back up. This is the fuel cut some are experiencing. This is an electronically controlled safety measure that in no way means you are running lean or any threat to damage of any of your engine components may occur. The ecu is merely asking for more time for the rail pressure to build back up.

Now knowing this, how do calibrators still extrapolate the full potential of the turbocharger in the low and mid rpm's?

There are a couple of different ways and philosophies to accomplish what everyone wants, the most power possible.

APR's engineering team chooses to follow the recommendation of Bosch, Audi and VW engineers of maintaining the oem specified air fuel ratio of 10.5:1. The reason for this requirement is that direct injection engines run a higher compression ratio over standard injection engines due to the benefits of FSI which results in higher exhaust gas temperatures. Turbocharged engines have always resulted in higher egt's that wear the head, exhaust valves, exhaust manifold and turbocharger itself more rapidly than a normally aspirated engine will. Engineers have combated these higher temperatures with sodium filled valves, high nickel content manifolds and inconel turbo housings, etc. The best strategy for controlling high egt's however is richer afr's to cool everything down in lieu of expensive parts that oems can't typically provide at a reasonable price. So unless you plan on changing out your valves, exhaust manifold, turbocharger and even the headgasket, you can only maintain safety to your components by maintaining the OEM specified afr's.

What this means to APR clients is that APR is doing everything within the reccomended specifications of oem teir 1 suppliers and VAG/Bosch engineering reports to ensure no deterioration of life occurs to any of your engine components. This results in greater demand of the rail pump and to maximize the potential of the turbocharger at low and mid rpm's, fuel pressure must be maintained and this is much more difficult at the oem recommended afr spec as opposed to merely leaning it out and watching the egt's climb but no fuel cuts will occur.

Other companies have chosen to lean out the air fuel ratios to as much as 12.5:1 to avoid the fuel cuts. This results in egt's that are well above Borg Warner's specification of 970deg cel max preturbine egt's. This spec was put in place by BW for VAG engineers to ensure no loss of life to the turbocharger. During BW's testing and development of the turbo's found on VAG FSI engines, egt's outside of their spec was proven to show accelerated wear and even total failure well before the normal lifespan of the turbo as per its design requirements from VAG.

EGT's are so important to FSI engines that Bosch, at great expense, integrated an egt model into the ME 9 ecu to calculate preturbine egt's. If the egt's climb out of spec as per the ecu's model, the ecu then dumps fuel to cool everything down for a period of time until the egt's come back to spec. This is known as the hardware protection map to most engineers familiar with Bosch EMS.

APR engineers find themselves walking a fine line between maximum power output and safety. APR WILL NOT lean out afr's that result in egt's outside of the specification. APR WILL NOT provide an irresponsible product to the marketplace.

This philosophy results in a difficult position in the marketplace as our competition chooses to ignore these basic engineering principles and recklessly provides products that are known to result in loss of life of your engine. They don't hit fuel cut because they are running leaner mixtures that result in less fuel demand and therefore less demand on the rail pump at the low and mid rpm's. EGT's however, are not safe at these afr's. APR recalibrations will always maintain safe egt's and if they do climb out of spec the hardware protection map will kick on and bring everything back very quickly. Our competition circumvents or disables hardware protection and allows the egt's to continue to climb.

This is not merely speculation or arguable. It is proven fact. To satisfy yourself, please data log lamba, egt's and fuel pressure. This is especially concerning for track enthusiasts that find themselves hot lapping during driving events or participating competitively. The street enthusiast may be able to get away with higher egt's for longer periods of time as typically you are at wot in relatively short bursts where on a road course you are wot almost the entire time. All client situations must be considered and please know that with APR calibration you will enjoy safe operation in any circumstance.

Now that we understand why the fuel cuts occur you may ask well, what is APR doing about satifying the concern as fuel cut is not fun.

We have discovered opportunities in the ecu to increase fuel pressure from 110 bar to 130 bar. This results in higher overall fuel pressure so the demands in the low and midrange can be satisfied by having more pressure so when the pressure dips due to the demand it will not dip as far and fuel cut will be avoided. This is a relatively new discovery that is currently being integrated into all of our calibrations. In the USA we have been offering a "beta" version of our stage 2+ programming that incorporates the additional fuel pressure and fuel cuts are greatly diminished and only occur very rarely with significantly more power delivery in the low and midrange. The testing is complete and we are now working to provide new files with absolutely no fuel cuts but with almost all of the power available to be had by the oem turbo.

Further development has resulted in a new higher capacity rail pump that will be the ultimate end all be all to the fuel cut problem. The addition of the APR rail pump results in 15-20 more hp and 20-25 more lb. ft. of torque over the beta file in the mid and low rpm's and the oem turbo is fully optimized.

Any comments guys ....

 

[DanGB]

price of this new APR pump... $1100!!!

 

[Chris_Cupra]

Interesting reading on the subject ...


Well, here's the situation with FSI's and recalibrations.

Typically, VAG turbo engines, 1.8T, 2.7T etc. have plenty of fuel available to realize the full potential of the oem turbocharger. This is not the case with the 2.0T FSI.

The FSI uses a rail pump in addition to the intank pump to deliver fuel AND pressure to the fuel rail. This rail pump is cam driven and moves a piston up and down to force the fuel into the rail. Deisel engines have been using this method of fuel delivery for many years. The rail pump generates pressure behind the fuel injectors and when the ecu tells the injectors to pulse or open to inject fuel into the combustion chamber a small amount of pressue and fuel is lost from the rail and the rail pump must then force more fuel into the rail to bring the fuel volume and pressure back up to spec. Simple.

Basically, because the rail pump is driven by the cam shaft, the rate at which the rail pump is able to rebuild pressure and volume in the rail is determined by how fast the cam shaft is spinning or forcing the piston in the rail pump up and down. So the limitation in fueling for the FSI is greater at lower rpm's and in the midrange than in the higher rpm range where the cam shaft is spinning faster.

Now you could say, well at higher rpm you are also using more fuel so why isn't the problem occurring there as well? The answer is because the rate at which the fuel pump delivers fuel increases beyond the engine's ability to consume fuel with the oem turbo at higher rpm's. Basically, the turbo provides too much power in the low and mid range than in the upper range as matched to the rail pump. The turbo runs out of breath still in the higher rpm's so fuel demand is less. Peak hp numbers are made up top as a product of torque over time where the rpm's are greater. More rpm's, more torque over time accumatively, less immediate demand on the fuel delivery.

In the low and midrange, the fuel demand is all in torque or immediate requirement over less time. The rail pump simply can't get to a great enough speed to deliver the fuel that is demanded at peak torque rpm's. This is a very brief and momentary demand in relation to a sustained continual demand that hp requires in the high rpm's.

So what happens is when the ecu is calling for more fuel pressure a very temporary situation can occur where the pump is not spinning fast enough to provide the requested fuel pressure in the low and mid rpm's. This results in the ecu enabling a safety feature that cuts spark and fuel temporarily to allow the pressure in the rail to build back up. This is the fuel cut some are experiencing. This is an electronically controlled safety measure that in no way means you are running lean or any threat to damage of any of your engine components may occur. The ecu is merely asking for more time for the rail pressure to build back up.

Now knowing this, how do calibrators still extrapolate the full potential of the turbocharger in the low and mid rpm's?

There are a couple of different ways and philosophies to accomplish what everyone wants, the most power possible.

APR's engineering team chooses to follow the recommendation of Bosch, Audi and VW engineers of maintaining the oem specified air fuel ratio of 10.5:1. The reason for this requirement is that direct injection engines run a higher compression ratio over standard injection engines due to the benefits of FSI which results in higher exhaust gas temperatures. Turbocharged engines have always resulted in higher egt's that wear the head, exhaust valves, exhaust manifold and turbocharger itself more rapidly than a normally aspirated engine will. Engineers have combated these higher temperatures with sodium filled valves, high nickel content manifolds and inconel turbo housings, etc. The best strategy for controlling high egt's however is richer afr's to cool everything down in lieu of expensive parts that oems can't typically provide at a reasonable price. So unless you plan on changing out your valves, exhaust manifold, turbocharger and even the headgasket, you can only maintain safety to your components by maintaining the OEM specified afr's.

What this means to APR clients is that APR is doing everything within the reccomended specifications of oem teir 1 suppliers and VAG/Bosch engineering reports to ensure no deterioration of life occurs to any of your engine components. This results in greater demand of the rail pump and to maximize the potential of the turbocharger at low and mid rpm's, fuel pressure must be maintained and this is much more difficult at the oem recommended afr spec as opposed to merely leaning it out and watching the egt's climb but no fuel cuts will occur.

Other companies have chosen to lean out the air fuel ratios to as much as 12.5:1 to avoid the fuel cuts. This results in egt's that are well above Borg Warner's specification of 970deg cel max preturbine egt's. This spec was put in place by BW for VAG engineers to ensure no loss of life to the turbocharger. During BW's testing and development of the turbo's found on VAG FSI engines, egt's outside of their spec was proven to show accelerated wear and even total failure well before the normal lifespan of the turbo as per its design requirements from VAG.

EGT's are so important to FSI engines that Bosch, at great expense, integrated an egt model into the ME 9 ecu to calculate preturbine egt's. If the egt's climb out of spec as per the ecu's model, the ecu then dumps fuel to cool everything down for a period of time until the egt's come back to spec. This is known as the hardware protection map to most engineers familiar with Bosch EMS.

APR engineers find themselves walking a fine line between maximum power output and safety. APR WILL NOT lean out afr's that result in egt's outside of the specification. APR WILL NOT provide an irresponsible product to the marketplace.

This philosophy results in a difficult position in the marketplace as our competition chooses to ignore these basic engineering principles and recklessly provides products that are known to result in loss of life of your engine. They don't hit fuel cut because they are running leaner mixtures that result in less fuel demand and therefore less demand on the rail pump at the low and mid rpm's. EGT's however, are not safe at these afr's. APR recalibrations will always maintain safe egt's and if they do climb out of spec the hardware protection map will kick on and bring everything back very quickly. Our competition circumvents or disables hardware protection and allows the egt's to continue to climb.

This is not merely speculation or arguable. It is proven fact. To satisfy yourself, please data log lamba, egt's and fuel pressure. This is especially concerning for track enthusiasts that find themselves hot lapping during driving events or participating competitively. The street enthusiast may be able to get away with higher egt's for longer periods of time as typically you are at wot in relatively short bursts where on a road course you are wot almost the entire time. All client situations must be considered and please know that with APR calibration you will enjoy safe operation in any circumstance.

Now that we understand why the fuel cuts occur you may ask well, what is APR doing about satifying the concern as fuel cut is not fun.

We have discovered opportunities in the ecu to increase fuel pressure from 110 bar to 130 bar. This results in higher overall fuel pressure so the demands in the low and midrange can be satisfied by having more pressure so when the pressure dips due to the demand it will not dip as far and fuel cut will be avoided. This is a relatively new discovery that is currently being integrated into all of our calibrations. In the USA we have been offering a "beta" version of our stage 2+ programming that incorporates the additional fuel pressure and fuel cuts are greatly diminished and only occur very rarely with significantly more power delivery in the low and midrange. The testing is complete and we are now working to provide new files with absolutely no fuel cuts but with almost all of the power available to be had by the oem turbo.

Further development has resulted in a new higher capacity rail pump that will be the ultimate end all be all to the fuel cut problem. The addition of the APR rail pump results in 15-20 more hp and 20-25 more lb. ft. of torque over the beta file in the mid and low rpm's and the oem turbo is fully optimized.

Any comments guys ....

The question is whether the S3/Ed30/Cupra TFSI engines run with higher capacity fuel pumps ...??? Is that true ...???

 

[Pummy]

So it means that the power curves below a certain point will not be optimised for power, and then when you reach that rpm point where the rail pump can satisfy any fuel request to maintain the 10.5:1 AFR ratio to maintain turbo life whilst squeezing most power out.

I guess the points here are...

What is the rpm point where the rail pump can fulfill any fuel request from a remap.

How much of a gain is to be had from changing the rail pump to provide the performance from idle - rpm point.

What are the implications of not having / having the enchanced rail pump that is optimised to the turbo.

Anything else maybe?

 

[sportbilly]

Autotech fuel pump modification ...

PDF Instructions

What are people's thoughts?

Edit: literally only just released so not many fitted yet, could be interesting to see what it can do

 

[tommy-cupra]

Autotech fuel pump modification ...

PDF Instructions

What are people's thoughts?

Edit: literally only just released so not many fitted yet, could be interesting to see what it can do

how much is it?

 

[sportbilly]

$349

 

[P0LKR]

I remember being told by my local revo guy that the flash counter does not get affected.

 

[DanGB]

Also, one big thing for me is that the map has to be switchable which REVO is. However as I understand it, unlike the GIAC, the Revo system does affect the tally in the flash counter which could potentially make it "visible" to the garage if in for a warranty repair. Thats not a road I want to go down.

As ive said before horace, im 99.9% sure it doesnt affec tthe flash counter. maybe it did on 1.8T's etc, I dunno

 

[DanGB]

I'll see if I can find anything.

 

[Feel]

Fair review, but no offence, it looks and sounds suspiciously like you got that map for "free" but agreed to do a few free plugs online to encourage others to buy it too in order to make it worth while for Revo

That comment will wind a lot of people up, I think, and just Warren (OP). Did you actually read the first post? Did you figure out that he is seriously out of pocket with MTM?

It's not uncommon for the person who's car is first up for remapping to get a hefty discount, or a free map. Hell, I'd want some kind of discount if they had my car for a week of "ragging around" to make sure the code was right, to then go on to sell to other people. The week of testing I've heard from other customers, not Warren.

This is significantly different to other tuners that have, alledgedly, used the tatic you mention.

Get your facts straight.

 

[Igor23]

I have a Revo remap, and after reading several threads, I chose Revo for 3 main reasons, 1: Brand reputation, 2: Flexibility with the SPS box+software, 3: Unlike as stated by djhorace, the flash counter is unaffected....
The other main reason is that the Revo dealership is 9 miles away..... not 30+, so if they need to tweak the map, it's local....
No inducements were offered, and as for the driveability, a Vantage couldn't shake me off his rear bumper, 5-6 miles of A road thrashing, so it works very well in the real world.....

 

[lsw]

ive tried both the revo remap,from vagtech & the superchip remap from them direct,and can honestly say the superchip was by far more superior in performance.

sorry for the revo maniacs ,who this may offend !!!!!!!!! ( mk2 cupra 07)