Seat dealership can't fix my Toledo - help!

[GTFC]

Hi all,

I'm a new member and am hoping someone can help me. I have an 02 plate 2.3 V5 Toledo with 55k on the clock. I bought it privately in July 08 and it has a full Seat Dealership service history. In October last year it started to run rough at low revs and cut out when stationary. I took it to my local garage as I thought it must just be something simple but they couldn't help me, so it went to the Seat dealership in Milton Keynes at the beginning of November. They have had it ever since and have been liaising with Seat technical but have been unable to fix it

To date they have tried various things including changing the top timing belt, but nothing has worked. The bill is £715 already and now they want to charge me another £700 to change the bottom timing belt, but with no guarantees it will work. I've escalated the situation to Seat customer service but they say there is nothing they can do, so I'm now in a situation where I could have a £1,400 bill and still have a dead car, or pay the £700 now and take away a car that's no better than it was when I gave it to them 2 months ago! Neither of these options is especially appealing, given that the car is only worth about £2,000??

Does anyone have any idea what might be wrong with it? Or what I could do to progress things without paying any more money?

Many thanks,

Gill

 

[andycupra]

where abouts are you located?

chaning timing belts seems an odd way to try to rectify poor runnning.

Im sure someone with better udnerstanding will come along soon, but id be looking at potential fuelling and electric faults.
I dont know the engine well at all, but things id expect to checked would be:
throttle body, air mass meter, plugs, coils, fuel supply, pipework (cracks in pipework or poor joins can cause no end of problems but are very hard to track down).Ive not put these in any particular order...

I dont think that its acceptable that a dealer 'guesses' and expects people to pay for this.

 

[Muttley]

Well, something isn't right with this dealer, because the V5 doesn't have timing belts, the camshafts are chain driven.

Isn't the first port of call for rough running the coilpacks, then plugs, followed by throttle body? Ask the dealer to provide you with the diagnostic readout and a list of the things they have done so far (and why) - after all, you've paid for it (or are going to).

I seem to remember cam chain tensioners being mentioned on here as a possible cause of rough running, but can't find the thread at the moment. No need to change the chains though, those things are very robust. The other valve-related item they might blame is the VVT mechanism, either the adjusters or the sensors. But their diagnostic equipment should tell them exactly where to look.

 

[GTFC]

where abouts are you located?

chaning timing belts seems an odd way to try to rectify poor runnning.

Im sure someone with better udnerstanding will come along soon, but id be looking at potential fuelling and electric faults.
I dont know the engine well at all, but things id expect to checked would be:
throttle body, air mass meter, plugs, coils, fuel supply, pipework (cracks in pipework or poor joins can cause no end of problems but are very hard to track down).Ive not put these in any particular order...

I dont think that its acceptable that a dealer 'guesses' and expects people to pay for this.

Hiya,

Thanks for the reply. I'm in Milton Keynes and the dealer is MK Seat. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll find out eactly what they have done so far and take it from there.

I've checked with Trading Standards and they say it's a very grey area and hinges on whether or not the supplier of services has taken 'reasonable care and skill' when carrying out the diagnosis. Bottom line is, I can't see how they can justify charging me £700 to NOT fix my car! Especially as they are allegedly the experts . . .

Cheers,

Gill

 

[GTFC]

Well, something isn't right with this dealer, because the V5 doesn't have timing belts, the camshafts are chain driven.

Isn't the first port of call for rough running the coilpacks, then plugs, followed by throttle body? Ask the dealer to provide you with the diagnostic readout and a list of the things they have done so far (and why) - after all, you've paid for it (or are going to).

I seem to remember cam chain tensioners being mentioned on here as a possible cause of rough running, but can't find the thread at the moment. No need to change the chains though, those things are very robust. The other valve-related item they might blame is the VVT mechanism, either the adjusters or the sensors. But their diagnostic equipment should tell them exactly where to look.

Thanks for the reply! That could be my error sorry, I think they did refer to it as a timing chain and not a timing belt . . . they said that sometimes they stretch?? Seems a bit odd to me!

Will definitely ask for the diagnostic readout and a list of what they have done so far and why, thanks for that suggestion - good idea. They reckon that everything they have done so far has been based on what their diagnostic equipment has told them to do - but it doesn't seem to have done me much good so far!

I think the key thing here is that it's only running rough at low revs. As soon as you get the speed up a bit it runs fine! Most of the usual things would cause rough running at all speeds I would have thought?

 

[ZBOYD]

I might be totally wrong, but cutting out at idle (when stationary) sounds like some kind of engine vacuum trouble. It could be as simple as a torn or damaged hose.

It's always difficult to judge something on a one sided situation, as neither SEAT or the dealer will likely defend their action on here.

However I think SEAT and the dealer should be ashamed to charge that kind of money and not guarantee a fix. They really don't do themselves favours, especially when the car market is so poor, why should people buy cars if the dealers and manufacturer can't give proper support.

 

[GTFC]

I might be totally wrong, but cutting out at idle (when stationary) sounds like some kind of engine vacuum trouble. It could be as simple as a torn or damaged hose.

It's always difficult to judge something on a one sided situation, as neither SEAT or the dealer will likely defend their action on here.

However I think SEAT and the dealer should be ashamed to charge that kind of money and not guarantee a fix. They really don't do themselves favours, especially when the car market is so poor, why should people buy cars if the dealers and manufacturer can't give proper support.

Thanks Mark,

It has to be said, from my experience of older cars (which is quite a bit, although not particularly technical) I was surprised that they didn't seem to consider trying a lot of the more basic options first. It's like they just plug it into the computer and do what it tells them - they hardly seem like 'real' mechanics at all any more!

The way they work is quite staggering. I'm a copywriter, and if I took on a writing job and then went back to my client two months later and said I couldn't do it, but I was going to charge them £700 for trying - I know what the answer would be!

 

[ZBOYD]

Yes that is the trouble, some are very much glorified part fitters by any other name. The other aspect though that no doubt infuriates the more capable techs at dealerships is SEAT's reluctance to pay them for diagnostic work so they have to charge high prices or refuse the work.

In warranty issues they are scuppered by the same shackles and if they spend time trying to diagnose a fault that ultimately isn't fixed, SEAT won't reimburse them if they have to try something else. So ultimately they either pass the charge on to the customer or refuse the work.

You'll find that most of the costs are for labour.

An independant with VW group experience will likely charge less labour and fix the fault.

 

[GTFC]

Yes that is the trouble, some are very much glorified part fitters by any other name. The other aspect though that no doubt infuriates the more capable techs at dealerships is SEAT's reluctance to pay them for diagnostic work so they have to charge high prices or refuse the work.

In warranty issues they are scuppered by the same shackles and if they spend time trying to diagnose a fault that ultimately isn't fixed, SEAT won't reimburse them if they have to try something else. So ultimately they either pass the charge on to the customer or refuse the work.

You'll find that most of the costs are for labour.

An independant with VW group experience will likely charge less labour and fix the fault.

Yep, almost all the costs are for labour! I did take it to my local garage first, a VW Audi specialist that I've known for years as they looked after the Audi A4 that I used to have. He said they couldn't help me as they didn't have the right kit. I know he would have if he could have.

Am now awaiting a call back from the manager of the Seat Customer Services team and also from the Dealer Principal - next step is a lot of toy throwing from the pram!!

 

[ZBOYD]

Am now awaiting a call back from the manager of the Seat Customer Services team and also from the Dealer Principal - next step is a lot of toy throwing from the pram!!

It can't hurt trying. Good Luck

 

[GTFC]

It can't hurt trying. Good Luck

Thanks!! Will let you know what happens . . .

 

[andycupra]

i hope all goes well and a satisfactory resolution is reached.

Ive had a similair experience with a dealer before where in the end i paid no labour but even that was hard work despite the car not being fixed but in fact being given back with more faults on it than when they received it. (which they thought id not notice).
Sadly in my case the parts were not cheap so i was still well out of pocket.

in the end it was fixed free of charge by an independant who knew what they were doing.

In my opinion, dealers may be able to justify the high labour costs they charge if they offer guarantees such as:
'no fix no fee', and
'price quoted is the price paid'. But none of offer this.

They routinelly advertise stating they are the only ones with the correct diagnostic equipement and expertese, but then continue to show otherwise with examples such as described on this thread.

Theses issues are compounded by seat customer services which appear to offer very little help at all and wash their hands of any dealer issue.

Seat have done a great job building up their name and customer base in the UK, with better customer care they will keep much of this custom, whereas it appears to me that many people are leaving the fold due to poor customer service. At times like these customer service is THE thing companies should look at rather than being something they can save money on.

 

[warren_cox]

A SEAT dealer had my car for 2 days with a boost spike issue (28psi), turned out to be a torn hose under the DV diagnosed in less than 5 minutes by an indy.

On an NA car which is cutting out, it could either suggest:

1) an idle stabilization issue

2) a fuelling issue (maybe the injectors or fuel system could do with some cleaner running through), or one of the injector rubber seats has split and is leaking

3) an air leak on the intake side

4) throttle body issue? (are these dbw?)

My bro in law had an 01 VW Golf V5 and had so many issues he got rid of it. I'll have a chat with him tonight and see if he has any pointers.

 

[olethalb]

Thanks Mark,

It has to be said, from my experience of older cars (which is quite a bit, although not particularly technical) I was surprised that they didn't seem to consider trying a lot of the more basic options first. It's like they just plug it into the computer and do what it tells them - they hardly seem like 'real' mechanics at all any more!

The way they work is quite staggering. I'm a copywriter, and if I took on a writing job and then went back to my client two months later and said I couldn't do it, but I was going to charge them £700 for trying - I know what the answer would be!

in my few years experience in the trade mechanics who actually fix things are few and far between, we usually refer to them as fitters!

 

[Fl@pper]

either way it's still poorly at present so can you relay exactly what happens and when ?

only when cold ?
only when warm ?
after a run?
short trips?
all the time/intermittent etc ??

sounds daft but even the simplest thing can help narrow it down

and can you user a multimeter if asked too

 

[GTFC]

either way it's still poorly at present so can you relay exactly what happens and when ?

only when cold ?
only when warm ?
after a run?
short trips?
all the time/intermittent etc ??

sounds daft but even the simplest thing can help narrow it down

and can you user a multimeter if asked too

Happens all the time, cold or hot, long trips, short trips - but stops as soon as you get over about 2.5k revs and then starts again when you drop below. I drove it all the way back from Southampton after it first started doing it and once I got onto the A34 it was like nothing was wrong with it . . .

Thanks

 

[GTFC]

i hope all goes well and a satisfactory resolution is reached.

Ive had a similair experience with a dealer before where in the end i paid no labour but even that was hard work despite the car not being fixed but in fact being given back with more faults on it than when they received it. (which they thought id not notice).
Sadly in my case the parts were not cheap so i was still well out of pocket.

in the end it was fixed free of charge by an independant who knew what they were doing.

In my opinion, dealers may be able to justify the high labour costs they charge if they offer guarantees such as:
'no fix no fee', and
'price quoted is the price paid'. But none of offer this.

They routinelly advertise stating they are the only ones with the correct diagnostic equipement and expertese, but then continue to show otherwise with examples such as described on this thread.

Theses issues are compounded by seat customer services which appear to offer very little help at all and wash their hands of any dealer issue.

Seat have done a great job building up their name and customer base in the UK, with better customer care they will keep much of this custom, whereas it appears to me that many people are leaving the fold due to poor customer service. At times like these customer service is THE thing companies should look at rather than being something they can save money on.

Seems like the whole system is flawed. It just never occured to me that they wouldn't be able to pinpoint exactly what was wrong with it and just fix it! They are supposed to be the experts so if they don't know - who does??

 

[Fl@pper]

need a crash course in vag-com to play with it as i have been playing with omex ecu's for a while

might be worth a post in the vag-com section but i would be testing the pedal/throttle assy as a start not just for reset but for actual smooth signal and operation, i'm sure vagcom or is it vagscope has a measuring block it can read to see what's happening

just for starters anyway as it sounds like no mean feat to get to the bottom of this one at a guess as it's probably been looked over a hell of a lot but if it's still not right then starting again at the basics and looking thoroughly as you go along

just trying to think what could be in operation or activated etc at around a 2500rpm ish threshold

 

[Muttley]

GTFC wrote

Thanks for the reply! That could be my error sorry, I think they did refer to it as a timing chain and not a timing belt . . . they said that sometimes they stretch?? Seems a bit odd to me!

"Chain Stretch" is wear in the rollers and is taken up by the tensioner, and as they are running in constant lubrication wear should be minimal.

I think the key thing here is that it's only running rough at low revs. As soon as you get the speed up a bit it runs fine! Most of the usual things would cause rough running at all speeds I would have thought?

There is a variable inlet manifold system, vacuum operated, that should go from long to short at about 4000 rpm. If this is stuck on short then it may cause problems, but I'm not familiar enough with the V5 engine to say if it matches your symptoms.

 

[robreidmotors]

People are going to groan when i say this, but i like to get the basics right first.

Cars with dealer history are usually good, however seems they tend to ignore the air filter and spark plugs ie if it runs ok and no fault codes etc its all okay. (plus V engine so more plugs to check, i reckon they may have ignored them)

I would check the air filter make sure its clean, then have a look at the plugs.

Reason i say this is bad air filter would restrict air into the engine and cause bad running, also bad plugs speak for themselves.